Edtech Insiders
Edtech Insiders
What If School Worked Like a Video Game? Nolan Bushnell and Dr. Leah Hanes of ExoDexa Explain
Nolan Bushnell is the founder of Atari and Chuck E. Cheese and is widely known as the father of the video game industry. Dr. Leah Hanes is the CEO of ExoDexa, co-author of the ExoDexa Manifesto, and leads the Two Bit Circus Foundation, where she has impacted over 460,000 students through game-based and project-based learning.
đĄ 5 Things Youâll Learn in This Episode:
- Why traditional schooling fails students who donât learn at the ârightâ pace
- How game design principles like flow and mastery can transform learning
- The role AI can play in personalized, no-grades education
- Why gamification efforts led by academics often fall short
- What a âperfect school dayâ could look like in an AI-driven future
⨠Episode Highlights:
[00:03:00] Nolan Bushnell on the throughline from Atari to education reform
[00:05:10] Dr. Leah Hanes on why learning by doing leads to deeper retention
[00:07:52] How AI enables true individualized learning inside ExoDexa
[00:12:16] Nolan on eliminating grades and batch-processing in education
[00:16:58] Why homeschoolers may lead the next wave of education innovation
[00:21:33] The science of âflowâ and what makes learning feel addictive
[00:27:51] Leahâs vision for AI tutors, physical activity, and student agency
[00:29:30] Nolanâs radical take on VR, exercise, naps, and brain science in school
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[00:00:00] Nolan Bushnell: Just the fact that you learn differently, maybe a little bit slower, you know it's a little slow. That's a euphemism for not being very bright when in fact, in the real world, if I'm a marketing guy or a girl and I take an extra five minutes to come up with a program, that five minutes in a test puts me at the bottom.
Five minutes in the world, nobody cares. And so I just feel like we've got, as people like to say, when we gamify education, we have a target rich environment.
[00:00:44] Alex Sarlin: Welcome to edTech Insiders, the top podcast covering the education technology industry from funding rounds to impact to AI developments across early child. Childhood K 12 higher ed and work. You'll find it all here at EdTech Insiders.
[00:01:00] Ben Kornell: Remember to subscribe to the pod, check out our newsletter, and also our event calendar and to go deeper, check out EdTech Insiders Plus where you can get premium content access. To our WhatsApp channel, early access to events and Back Channel Insights from Alex and Ben. Hope you enjoyed today's pod.
[00:01:24] Alex Sarlin: Welcome to EdTech Insiders. We have a really exciting episode today. We are speaking to incredible pioneers in the education and technology industry. We have with us today, Nolan Bushnell often called the. Father of the video game industry, he was the founder of Atari and Chuck E. Cheese, and a pioneer of interactive entertainment and learning.
He's now co-founder of ExoDexa, an AI powered game education platform, redefining how students learn in the 21st century. Dr. Leah Hanes is the CEO of ExoDexa, the game-based learning company, founded by Atari creator Nolan Bushnell. She is transforming education into an immersive. Playful experience. Dr. Leah Hanes also leads the Two Bit Circus Foundation, which impacts over 460,000 students. Leah co-authored the ExoDexa Manifesto and holds a PhD in Leadership and Change. Nolan Bushnell and Dr. Leah Hanes, welcome to EdTech Insiders.
[00:02:25] Nolan Bushnell: Great to be here.
[00:02:27] Dr. Leah Hanes: Happy to be.
[00:02:28] Alex Sarlin: It's so great to speak with you. So I wanna start with you, Nolan.
You are a true legend in the technology space. You truly basically invented the home video game industry and sort of invented the outdoor entertainment industry with Chuck E. Cheese. You founded some of these most iconic companies in history and now you're working game-based learning in ExoDexa. What's the common thread that you find in your career that's driven you to keep reinventing how people play, how they learn, and how they connect across now four decades of technology?
[00:03:00] Nolan Bushnell: Well, I found that games not just entertain, but have taught me some things about. Items like flow, which is why games are so addictive. And I always felt that school today has not kept up with the technology, and I have this rule that you can't complain about something without trying to fix it. So I've been complaining and then Leah and I got together and wrote this book.
I kind of catalyzed it, and again, it was solutions, but it was also complaining and so, so I felt that we had to do something about it. So we started this company and started creating a platform where we could, in fact, teach kids much faster, and then COVID came along and it just amplified everything that we learned.
So we were on the right path.
[00:04:00] Dr. Leah Hanes: You know what Nolan was saying about the technology and education. I mean, that is a big part of why we can't keep teachers in the classroom, like young teachers who come along. We're making them step back 20 years in technology and they're digital natives, so they stay a few years and then they're gone and it's great.
We have 17 versions of an iPhone in 17 years, and we're still using the same version of education we've used for a hundred years. Maybe we sit at tables instead of rows once in a while, but basically everything else is the same and it's, it's not productive.
[00:04:34] Alex Sarlin: Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of us in the education technology industry have felt that education is a field that is just so stubborn and resistant to change, especially when it comes to.
Centering sort of student motivations at the heart of what education should look like. And Leah, you often say that learning should feel immersive and it should feel playful and fun. It shouldn't feel like a chore, it shouldn't feel like a drag. From your experience leading the two bit circus foundation, which is also all about playful and engaging learning, and now ExoDexa, what happens when you actually transform education to help students learn by playing?
[00:05:10] Dr. Leah Hanes: Well, first of all, they remember more. There's all kinds of research about how much we remember, and it's not just kids. All of us, two weeks after we read something, we remember about 10% of it. Two weeks after we do something, we remember about 90% of it. So it just makes sense. I think like the combination of project-based learning, which is what the foundation is doing, and then video games, it's like the perfect combination 'cause they're doing something in the game.
You don't want kids eight hours a day at school, just in a video game. You want them up moving. And Nolan made the point when we first started talking about this, about the fact that when your blood is really flowing, when you're at peak performance. Physically you remember more of what you're learning.
So having project-based learning, good physical, like having an environment where kids can choose to play basketball or run the track or dance in the gyms, whatever it is that they wanna do, that gets their heart rate up and having them understand why they're doing it. Which is the other thing about our education, we're like, okay, you need to learn this, this, this, and this.
But why is the question in the kids like, why? And if you can give them a why, then you can captivate them. And Nolan's whole career has been about captivating children's imaginations and curiosity and having them build. So I feel like we've got the perfect combination.
[00:06:38] Nolan Bushnell: I wanna give a shout out to a book called Spark from a guy named John Ratty, who really talks a lot about the link between education and exercise.
[00:06:48] Alex Sarlin: So the relevance, the sort of having students understand why they're there. Physical movement actually literally getting your blood flowing has, as you say, lots of evidence that it ties into learning, having playful, active experiences where you're doing rather than just ingesting material. Passively all have been proven and in lots of science to be meaningful for education.
Yet none of them are exactly what you think of when you think of the traditional education system. There is not a lot of movement, certainly in classrooms. There are some exceptions, but for the most part, not a lot of movement. There's not nearly enough active or project-based learning and you just don't always have the authenticity and relevance.
And you know when students raise their hand and say, why are we learning this? The teacher's answers are not always super convincing. So you are building ExoDexa to remedy some of these things and only you describe ExoDexa as an AI powered game education platform. So there's AI and there's gaming in it.
What makes this different and new from past attempts to gamify learning? And what role do you see AI playing in developing the ExoDexa platform and supporting student learning?
[00:07:52] Nolan Bushnell: Well, right now AI is moving at such a break net speed, and it's showing power everywhere. And one of the things that AI can do is contract.
The progress so that there's nothing better than presenting information at exactly the right time for the individual. And that hasn't been enabled by ai, which was really hard before. And now it's kind of simple. And so that's one of the things I think too, that what has happened in the world is. Well, I started school pre-computer, and I like to say school was the most interesting thing happening in my town.
The alternative was watching the corn grow or the river flow, but 20 years in it now has reversed in which school's the least interesting. With maybe exception of recess because kids still like comradery. But in terms of the classroom experience, it's just is wrong.
[00:09:01] Dr. Leah Hanes: Like most of the video games that were done to gamify education were done by academics.
And so, you know, I'm not saying this as a a terrible criticism 'cause I'm an academic, but we're not built for designing games. We're trying to educate, we're trying to get kids engaged. But in my opinion, like. Marrying those two. And also the other thing that's different about our game that I think. Will propel us is that this is not a math game or an English game.
This is a game that will cover all of those and basically it's like a sci-fi novel that our executive producers worked on with us to build the game on so that when the kids, what they're learning is relevant to what they're experiencing in the game, and there's new research about, it's not that new anymore, it's about three years old.
About the positive impact on kids who are avid video game players and the impact is rigor. When they wanna get to that next level, they might fail a dozen times, but they're gonna come back and keep going until they get there. And that is translating now into other areas of their life. So that's, there are some things about video games that everybody has.
If you have. Children who are unbalanced and they're playing a lot of first person shooter games. That's kind of dangerous for all of us. But having a school where kids have individualized learning, it also helps us identify those kids and teachers have more time if everybody else is engaged in their work, you can work with the troubled kids.
So I kind of got away from the. Original question there about the difference in video games and gamifying education, but I do think that this is a very unique approach to gamifying it.
[00:10:42] Alex Sarlin: Yeah. Covering all of it. It resonates with me. I mean, I, I studied some game-based learning initiatives done by academics when I was in graduate school, and I remember having the same realization.
I was like, these games in theory should be really exciting, but they don't feel a whole lot like the games that students are playing for fun and right. Very text heavy. They'd be very complex. They'd be, yeah, I remember a game called River City that everybody should, should look that up. And you know, these are very well-meaning academics.
They were making the games to study the effects of the games. They weren't making games to sell them on consoles, but at the time, it's created this divorce between, as you say, Nolan, the school has gone from being the most exciting thing in a student state to the least exciting because the world around them has changed so fast.
Millions of games in their pocket, on their phones, on their iPads, on their consoles. They have social media. They have a lot of other things drawing their attention. They have Netflix, but gaming in particular, and particularly for boys, is a huge part of their lives. And the games just get better and better and better and better.
And the academic environment. Tends to stay pretty much the same. So it's, it's a huge change. One thing I wanted to ask you about in terms of the relationship between AI and gaming, and Nolan, let me pass this to you, is AI also makes the development of game assets, the development of game music, the development of game non-player characters much.
Easier and faster, and that whole world is accelerating as well. Somebody who's been building video games for decades. I'm curious how you see the rise of AI in game development and how you think that's gonna affect ExoDexa
[00:12:16] Nolan Bushnell: five x in speed and in some cases the graphics. You know, I'm not sure if you can use the word trumps, but it really is superior to.
Some of the stuff that's been created by the artists and one of the things that, you know, my brain is going to, because there's so many things that I think gamified learning does, and school kind of works for the top third and doesn't work at all for the bottom third, and what's the difference between the top third and the bottom third?
Not much in the scheme of things. True. And you know, so I like to say, we'll know we've won when there are no grades and no grades. And so first grade, second grade, third grade, that very much implies batch processing when learning should be individual. And then A, B, C, D means competition. And why does it matter where you pigeonhole yourself?
With a cohort and just the fact that you learn differently, maybe a little bit slower, you know it's a little slow. That's a euphemism for not being very bright when in fact, in the real world, if I'm a marketing guy or a girl and I take an extra five minutes to come up with a program, that five minutes in a test.
Puts me at the bottom, five minutes in the world, nobody cares. And so I just feel like we've got, as people like to say, when we gamify education, we have a target rich environment.
[00:14:07] Dr. Leah Hanes: Truly.
[00:14:08] Nolan Bushnell: Very much so. And you
[00:14:09] Dr. Leah Hanes: know, one of the other things about individualized learning, I mean a blessing for every kid because we all do.
I was a slow learner in school. Nobody ever expected me to go to university, and I waited till I was in my fifties to do that. And it was because of all those early comments and humiliations. And then here's something that isn't talked about a lot 'cause it's really difficult, but so many of these kids that go back and shoot up their schools, they go back to their own school.
The kid in Uvalde went to his own fifth grade classroom. So what's happening to these kids in school that's making such an impact that they come back with all that fury all of those years later. Individualized learning takes that early humiliation out of school. An interesting dilemma we find
[00:14:57] Nolan Bushnell: ourselves in, it's not as much a dilemma as it is a cabal,
and I feel like I see it as absolutely solvable, and the path in is really homeschoolers. That's probably where the most innovation is happening right now.
[00:15:16] Alex Sarlin: Yeah. Let's talk about that a bit because I think that's a really interesting comment. And just to circle back to the comment about no grades and, and no grades.
'cause I think that's, it's really relevant here. One of the things in the gaming world that I've always found very relevant and you, you mentioned it a moment ago. For learning is the idea that gaming creates a fixed standard, right? It creates places where people have to master a certain skill master, a certain set of ideas to keep moving, but then gives them infinite tries to get there.
And that's how most games work. Whereas school people move forward in lockstep and when they get, you know, a grade back on assignment, it's rare that they get the chance to do it even once again, let alone many times again. And it creates this incredible sense, as you say, of like. Speed and pace and being slow is a huge penalty.
Being five minutes behind on a test means you're not gonna be able to finish. You're gonna get a lower grade. You're sort of forced into a little bit of a humiliating ritual. There is this incredible sense of sort of push behind students in schooling, whereas many game environments are much more appalled.
Here's the world, like you can try as many times as you'd like. You can move at your own pace. You could get to level six or level 50 or move however you'd like. And I think that's a really key difference between the gaming world and the traditional schooling world that is relevant to what you're both saying.
And you know, it leads me to the question, which is that as you're building X oex, as you're thinking about this homeschool population, as one of the sort of beachhead. Places where you wanna go. What's different about the homeschool environment that sort of removes some of those pressures that we've been talking about in traditional schooling, and why does that make it a ripe target for what you're doing with ExoDexa?
[00:16:58] Nolan Bushnell: For some reason, the homeschooling market has interested parents that are interested in one thing, outcomes, and when you have a outcome based mindset. If you're better, then you win. Right? And when you go into public schools, there's a little bit of lip service to outcomes, but it's mostly about status quo and protecting legacy systems and people.
I mean, if you look at the teacher's union, it's driven by the ones that are about ready to retire. No, not the new recruits and so, so the incentives are wrong, and so we think that the public school in some cases will be the last.
[00:17:52] Alex Sarlin: So Leah, you mentioned you're doing work in the Los Angeles school districts in Dallas, Fort Worth in Compton.
Tell us about what that looks like in relationship to how schooling is ready for a tool like ExoDexa and what you're doing there.
[00:18:06] Dr. Leah Hanes: Well, all of those schools are through the foundation and we build maker spaces and then we do a lot of professional development to get teachers to move from lecture style to learning by making and doing.
So what we'll do with ExoDexa is we've got but a dozen schools in the Dallas Fort Worth school district that we'll test in and about the same number in Los Angeles. And we're now talking to a group in New York City. Who would also we're considering Dallas and la. We have schools that will do it, and that will be so that we can build our efficacy proof.
And I'm confident about eight months after we are in schools, we'll have enough of the information. I mean, first of all. Kids, would you prefer a lecture or do you wanna play a video game to learn this? I mean, Nolan and I did a fireside chat with about 150 high school kids a month or so ago, and I asked them at the end of it, how many of you would like to have Nolan Bushnell design your curriculum?
And everybody's hands blew up. Some of them had both hands up. So there's no question in my mind that students are going to adopt this quickly. I think teachers will as well. It's been really interesting 'cause when we wrote the book, I was a little nervous 'cause we're kind of hard on the current approach to education in our book.
But the response has been really interesting 'cause teachers feel that too. It's just like, how do you make change? You started by saying that it's, it's slow to adapt change in education and that's in part because. These are precious little individuals and parents are worried about any, you know, too big a change.
And we've made some missteps in the past by following different paths. And I think L-A-U-S-D has an amazing superintendent. He's very much a visionary. Our maker spaces are called steam lab maker spaces, and he was recently introduced at the LA Chamber of Commerce as the superintendent who brought steam lab maker spaces to L-A-U-S-D.
So, and I do think. The teachers know the difference. Give kids a chance. And it doesn't mean we stop having them read things, but if you want them to remember what they read, have them read what you want them to read, and then have them make something that represents what they learned from the reading.
That way they remember more of what they read because there's a project attached to it. So an ExoDexa is a perfect combination to this. We're also, you know, considering a charter school ourselves where we could. Combine the project-based learning and makerspaces from the foundation with the gamified learning, and then add to it the physical approach that we wanna take.
And at the back of our book, the end of our book is our description of what we think a perfect school day would look like.
[00:20:48] Alex Sarlin: I love that, that combination of physical and the agency and hands-on active learning that comes with makerspaces and the game-based learning and all of the engagement and excitement and authenticity that can come with that.
It's a really exciting vision. Noah, you've been designing video games for a very long time. You know, Leah mentioned the hands. Going up when they say, having, uh, LL Al design your curriculum. And you've mentioned in the past that education should be quote unquote addictive. It should be as engaging and exciting and fun as the best game experiences.
So tell us a little bit about how you're thinking about ExoDexa and taking some of the mechanics that we know to be very, very exciting for anyone but especially young people in gaming and inject them into a learning environment.
[00:21:33] Nolan Bushnell: The way you make games addictive is to get a kid in the state of flow, and that comes from making it easy enough that they can do it, but hard enough that they're challenged.
And it's that Goldilocks point of not too hard, not too easy. And that was pioneered by a Hungarian guy at the University of Chicago called Mac. Or something like that,
[00:22:01] Dr. Leah Hanes: no one's going to correct you,
[00:22:03] Nolan Bushnell: and so I think as long as you do that, I can talk about the angst I'm feeling right now is I'm feeling like we're a little too late for what's going on right now because the problem that I see is.
What do we teach kids? What is the world that they're going to be in in five years or four years? Because there's massive change happening because of ai. And so I've been having conversation with young people right now and in some of my speeches lately, and I talk about how. This is unprecedented time for change.
And when you have mathematically not to get too wonky mathematically, a singularity wipes out trend lines. So what you're predicting based on trend lines all of a sudden goes away and the other side of the singularity is up for grabs. Right now we know that AI is providing that singularity. That, you know, it's a change agent of major proportion and so in some ways the only thing that may matter, I'm being cautious a little bit, but the only thing that may matter is to really understand AI and to become proficient that all the tools that are gonna be there.
'cause if you're right next to the change agent. You will be most ready to compete on the other side of the singularity. And so I've been really pushing my family and grandkids and what have you into building things, doing things, you know, I said, okay, tomorrow I want you to build a 10 minute YouTube video.
And you'll be judged by how many people subscribe. I mean, that's what schools should be doing right now, that kind of stuff, in my opinion, because we just don't know. One of the things that I think I was lucky or smart, or neither when I graduated from college, I moved to Silicon Valley. Because I felt that semiconductors were gonna be the change agent at that time, and I was right.
And I really think that had I not done that, my outcomes would've been very, very different.
[00:24:43] Dr. Leah Hanes: And a generation of young gamers would be so sad.
[00:24:47] Nolan Bushnell: I actually believe I accelerated the development of the video game, but I believe that it would've happened without me. No question about it. What I did is I allowed.
Video games to predate the microprocessor. Like the microprocessor really didn't come around until 75, and I started Atari in 70. So because they were state machines, they were just Boolean logic gates and flip flops and what have you. 'cause computers weren't fast enough.
[00:25:23] Dr. Leah Hanes: Nolan was talking about ai. There are still schools who are banning it, so the children are, have no exposure to it, no experience of it in school, if you ban something, you know the kids are gonna find a way around it.
So it, it's, they're learning it, but it's really on us to teach them effective ways of working with AI and using ai. They're going to have more and more sophisticated versions. Like every day it's more sophisticated. I don't know, 60 Minutes did a story on Sunday about an AI program that blackmailed someone who was trying to shut it down.
I mean, the AI came up with the searching through their emails and found out they were having an affair. So like I think the future of AI is. Life changing for all of us. Some of that will be really good. Some of that will be really tough to figure out. But really it's on us to teach these kids how to use it.
But we're asking teachers who don't know how to use it to teach, how to use it,
[00:26:23] Nolan Bushnell: you know? And we, in some ways, the foundation is actually helpful in some very interesting ways. Building stuff is really not just therapeutic. But maybe instrumental in the gig economy, which is coming. As
[00:26:40] Alex Sarlin: I hear you both talk about, you know, the idea of being close to this technology.
I mean, we talk on the podcast a lot about how this is really does feel like a once in a lifetime technology. I think it remains to be seen if it's a true singularity, but it, the chances feel pretty decent. And you know the idea that when a technology this powerful comes along and changes so many aspects of society.
Being close to it, just sort of knowing how to use it, how to leverage it for your own goals, and having it be part of your education is vital In a lot of the old roles of education, which we've had for a long time, and they've been increasingly, I think, irrelevant in certain ways. The existing curricula.
Just starts to really feel antiquated in a new way. So my last question for both of you is, Leah, you mentioned that perfect school day that you said at the end of ExoDexa Manifesto, and I'd love to ask each of you what are some aspects of the perfect school day in three years as AI continues to evolve, as VR continues to evolve as schools?
Continue to struggle with the things they're struggling with. What does that perfect school day look like and what are some elements, and what role does ExoDexa play in it? Leo, let me start with you.
[00:27:51] Dr. Leah Hanes: Well, first of all, I think every child has their own, at that point, every child has their own AI companion slash tutor, and that will handle all of their academics and their interest areas with a human.
Engaged. Like I don't see, and I think we just saw with the Alpha schools, they were doing a lot of things right, but the fact that they advertise that they are a school without teachers was a big mistake. In my opinion. You need teachers maybe differently trained than some of our, you know, teachers in my generation were trained a particular way, and this is a real challenge to make them the move.
So I think in the future that kids all have their own ai. That they've helped develop that it's their personal system, and there'll be a lot of physical activity. So they'll probably spend a couple of hours a day in a video game that's educating them, and they'll probably spend a couple of hours a day, either in a team sport or, or as I said, like running track, dancing in the gym, whatever physical activity is interesting to them.
And then they'll spend time collaborating on projects, root projects that they're doing, and some individualized projects. Always with people who have similar interests with different age groups. It's not like you're only, I mean, how many times in your life have you worked only with people your own age?
Doesn't happen. So in school it would be similar where the 10-year-old might be the uh, expert in this particular area helping the 15 and 16 year olds understand it. So yeah, I think that it's a more open system at that point. And the kids are in charge of their own educational direct.
[00:29:30] Nolan Bushnell: I wanna riff a little bit and get wild and crazy.
I love to mash things up. So for example, why not exercise in VR and ar? So now all of a sudden you're doing something that is totally synthetic, but. You have to run through the Savannah or you have to run through the bloodstream, or you get to participate in the constitutional convention. There's this other thing that, for example, I think that it would be good if we start the school day with 20 minutes of vigorous exercise.
Is your heart rate going? Then you have your school day and it's a blend of ar, vr, and AI guided curriculum. Then you have lunch that is calorically and carbohydrate designed for you because it shows that a lot of people metabolize things very differently than after lunch. You have a nap and that's been shown to create much better outcomes for the afternoon.
It only needs to be 20 minutes according to the, this is data that's come out of NASA 20 minute nap after then exercise again for 20 minutes so that you get the BDNF surge in the afternoon and you're allowed to drink green tea. Nothing like a little stimulation chemically. And then you're out of there.
So I think that we need to deal with the physicality, the chemistry, and the attention we need to use all the best brain science, all of it. And that's kind of my engineering view to what we're trying to do.
[00:31:38] Alex Sarlin: That's a really fascinating, even lunch is personalized, personalized nutrition in the middle of the day.
I think that makes a lot of sense. I really appreciate these visions. I think they showcase a lot of the different ideas that the physicality, the personalization, the ai, the collaboration, the project-based learning, the, you know, there are all of these aspects of education that. As you say, there's lots of evidence for them there.
There's lots of evidence for each of them, but they often don't make their way into the school system, and I'm really excited about this vision. ExoDexa, of course, would be providing the game-based learning, the running through the bloodstream, the ability to actually make sense of all of these concepts in this way that is much more engaging, exciting, and you know, quote unquote addictive.
Thank you so much to both of you. Nolan Bushnell is often called the father of the video game industry because he founded Atari and Chuck E Cheese and he is now the co-founder of ExoDexa and Dr. Leah Hanes is CEO of ExoDexa. It's a game-based learning company and it's transforming education into an immersive and playful experience.
Thank you both so much for being here with us on EdTech Insiders.
[00:32:46] Nolan Bushnell: I wanna grab a little bit of time for a commercial. And so go for it. I want everybody to go out and buy our book, and if you don't read it, you can also eat one for breakfast. And the second thing, we are doing a fundraising right now, and so I want you to go in and hit our website.
And then send us a whole bunch of money. And so that's my parting message because I want you to be part of our quest, and you can choose to be a benefactor or you can choose to be a maid or the thief. You know, in good games parlance.
[00:33:31] Dr. Leah Hanes: Thank you. Alex
[00:33:33] Alex Sarlin: Thanks for listening to this episode of EdTech Insiders.
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