Edtech Insiders
Edtech Insiders
How Higher Ed Can Actually Prepare Students for Work with Brandon Busteed of Edconic
Brandon Busteed is the CEO of Edconic and a nationally recognized leader in work-integrated learning. Formerly President of Kaplan University Partners and Head of Education & Workforce Development at Gallup, he has spent his career building bridges between higher education and industry through research, innovation, and large-scale partnerships.
đĄ 5 Things Youâll Learn in This Episode:
- Why work-integrated learning matters
- Why employers say grads arenât work-ready
- Why internships donât scale
- How colleges can merge liberal arts with career prep
- How AI bridges academic and job skills
⨠Episode Highlights
[00:00:00] The power of work-integrated learning for long-term outcomes
[00:02:49] How the educationâworkforce gap emerged
[00:05:54] Why so few students get quality applied learning experiences
[00:07:28] Debunking the liberal-arts vs. careerism divide
[00:13:51] The internship shortage and rise of âderivative internshipsâ
[00:18:56] Edtechâs role in expanding work-based learning
[00:20:53] How virtual and industry immersion programs reshape higher ed
[00:24:44] Employersâ low confidence in graduate readiness
[00:26:17] Faculty externships as a bridge between academia and industry
[00:30:01] Co-designed learning between teachers and industry experts
[00:33:24] AI as a translator between academic and career skills
[00:42:12] Saxbysâ model of student-run campus businesses
[00:46:07] Expanding student awareness of career paths beyond the âtop 10â
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[00:00:00] Brandon Busteed: One of the trends that I'm encouraged by is more colleges, universities offering industry recognized credentials as part of their menu. The college or university that isn't investing in more work oriented, career oriented support for students is gonna have a challenge competing. It doesn't mean that you've gotta drop the liberal arts distinction and go all in on vocational training or however somebody might call it in a more derogatory fashion.
It's a both end. And I think that both end has to be a strong embrace across higher ed because for a lot of people you say. What's the number one reason why Americans value higher ed? The number one reason by mile is to get a good or better job.
[00:00:44] Alex Sarlin: Welcome to EdTech Insiders, the top podcast covering the education
technology industry from funding rounds to impact to AI developments across early childhood K 12 higher ed and work. You'll find it all here at EdTech Insiders.
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We have a really special guest today on the EdTech Insiders Podcast. We're talking to Brandon Busteed. He's the CEO of Edconic, and he's a leading expert on work integrated learning. Edconic provides students with transformative industry immersive experiences in partnership with iconic organizations, and we'll get into that.
Brandon was also the president of Capital University Partners that was Higher Ed's first multi-purpose strategic partner. He was the global head of Learn work innovation at Kaplan. Before that, spent six years as Gallup doing education and workforce development. And originally his first foray into EdTech was as a founder and a former CEO of outside the classroom branded Basti.
So happy to have you here on EdTech Insiders.
[00:02:11] Brandon Busteed: Thanks Alex. Always good to be on a show that's catering to the ed tech community and you've been doing a great job of that. So, uh, thanks for including me.
[00:02:19] Alex Sarlin: Oh, thanks so much. Well, I have a big fan of your work. I have followed your articles, I've followed your writing and your, and your work at these various companies for quite a long time.
I think you've been a leading voice on bridging the gap between industry and education for. Decades and now here we are. Right. And I feel like we're actually starting to get there. Can you give us a little bit of a sort of the arc of some of the highlights of your career, specifically with regards to helping close that yawning gap between what is happening in education and what is happening in the workforce?
[00:02:49] Brandon Busteed: Yeah, for sure. You know, I think it started in my time at Gallup. I was leading the education and workforce development practice there, and some people will remember what was called the Gallup Purdue Index. And in short it, it was, and still is the largest representative study of college graduates in US history.
Really designed to look at their long-term outcomes and dynamic measures, like whether they were engaged in their work, thriving, their wellbeing, things that, obviously Gallup is very well known for studying and measuring around the globe and really trying to unpack the relationship between that long-term success and what students experience during college.
Right. And I think it got to a lot of what I describe as the magic ingredients. Of this special thing that we call college, right? When it works, it truly is a game and life trajectory game changer. It doesn't always work for everybody. You know, a certain percentage who start never complete. Some who complete may not have had the greatest, most transformative experience, et cetera.
But back to your question about the arc, what that study really told us was that there were a handful of experiences that if a student has during college. It doubles their odds of being engaged in work later, and it doubles their odds of thriving and their overall wellbeing. And what were they? They were relationship rich aspects of college, right?
The degree to which a graduate said they had a mentor who encouraged their goals and dreams, but it was also work integrated. Learning experiences and the ones that jumped out were things like saying you had a job or internship where you were able to apply what you were learning in the classroom or whether you had a chance to work on a long-term project that took a semester or more to complete.
And so once those insights kind of bubbled to the top of that study, the other thing that hit me was that although they're so important and valuable, really a small percentage of college graduates were hitting the mark on those. So it's less than a third on both of those work integrated learning opportunities that I mentioned.
So it's not that it's not happening. For some students, it's that we're just not doing it at scale. Right. And so I think from that moment of being involved in that study to now, most of my career arc has been spent trying to make that a ubiquitous experience for students as opposed to a minority of students participating in higher education.
And of course, to your point. It has really illuminated a significant gap between industry and higher education. Right. And so I've always been interested in finding ways to bridge that gap, find creative partnerships, and get to a place where work integrated learning is just synonymous with this experience we call college.
And yeah, to your point, I think there's some really exciting things that are happening. There's real momentum around that, and most especially from young students and their parents who. Are eager to touch these work integrated learning experiences more so than I think recent generations. And so we've got demand.
We need to keep up with the supply side of things, and that's where I spend a lot of my time and efforts these days.
[00:05:54] Alex Sarlin: That supply demand split is, I think, really core to the issue here. I mean, the, you know, one of the things that's always informed the way I think about the university system, there's a great book by Kevin Carey many years ago, new American Foundation called The End of College.
I'm sure you know it. And he, he talked about one of the original issues with college in the American system is that it's doing three different things, right? It's doing basic research to improve the country and invent things and do patents. It's doing. Teaching to make, you know, citizenry and, and fully rounded sort of the liberal arts education and it's preparing people for the workforce.
But recently we have seen people vote with their feet. We've seen people answer surveys for years and years now, saying they want more workforce. I don't think they call it work integrated learning per se, but they're saying we want to have the kind of outcomes you just mentioned in that sur in that, uh, in that Gallup Purdue survey, they want to have jobs.
They like, they wanna stay at those jobs, they wanna enjoy those jobs, they want lucrative jobs. They wanna be part of the world and they tell colleges that's what they want. Yet as you say, only a third of students are receiving that kind of work integrated learning. So my question for you is, why haven't schools adapted?
You know, they've been more and more consumer driven in other ways. They just haven't adapted that quickly. They are starting to now to this very clear demand for preparation for work writ large. That doesn't necessarily mean purely vocational ed, but the things that you need to do to have a fulfilling career.
People say they want it, parents say it, students say it, but colleges don't expand their career services. They don't say Every student has to have an internship before they graduate. Why not?
[00:07:28] Brandon Busteed: Yeah, look, there's a lot of reasons under the hood of that. One is just what we have traditionally valued from the perspective of accreditation and what we mean by academic rigor.
You know, these things shouldn't be mutually exclusive, meaning thinking about traditional academic rigor and preparation for the workforce. But I think. Higher ed has actually been guilty of making them feel and look and sound like they're mutually exclusive, right? Like, oh, it's either the liberal arts or it's careerism, dun dun, dun.
But to understand this really well, these are not mutually exclusive. Right? And you say, well, what do you mean by that? You look at what employers want and they're really clear. They want a well-rounded. Educated, well-rounded student in the sense of what we think of as the liberal arts type of curriculum, but they also want a graduate that is specifically skilled, so broadly educated and specifically skilled, not either or, and you know, and then you put it in the lens of another way of looking at it, you know?
They would rather, for example, hire a student with B grades who's had an internship. Then a student with All A's who's never had an internship experience. So again, they're not saying they don't value grades, but they value that work experience in some really profound ways. And they're not saying they just want narrowly skilled graduates.
They want both broadly educated. And specifically skilled. And these are things that I think the Academy in some ways has rejected or has gotten confused in terms of this either or mindset, right? And so I think that's been one of the challenges. I think it also relates to where we are in terms of what we value as a culture.
I think about well-intended parents. A lot of well-intended parents I know will say to their kids. Your job is to get good grades because good grades is how you get into a great college, and that's how you get a great job. And again, the point here is that it's not just about good grades, it's also about having had some kind of meaningful work experience and short of a full-blown internship.
Right. Have you worked on things that are like. What a work experience feels like. A long-term project that takes a semester or more to complete, right? Those are things that are closer to what happens in a real world work environment as opposed to pop quizzes and writing five page papers or whatever the more traditional academic sense might be.
So where I'm going with that is that we have lost sight. The learning value of work, and I think that's really important, right? We think about work for pay, and for some people that's fundamental, right? Like, I need a job during college because I can't afford to not have one. But for the students who are not necessarily in that case, right?
Are we looking at the learning value of a job? The learning value from work? And I'm convinced that that can come from all work. So look, we've had some great examples. If you look at the large online universities that are serving non-traditional students, working adults, they've been really good at recognizing prior learning credit from work or from the military, and you go, well, why haven't other colleges and universities been better at that?
That's a good, honest question. You know, I've, I've got somebody who comes out of the military. I know what kind of training they were exposed to. I can articulate some amount of academic credit. Four, that prior work experience or that prior training, but most college and universities don't. And so there's a way to do it.
There are institutions that are doing that in really profound ways like the, the Western Governors and the Southern New Hampshires of the world. The question is why isn't the rest of higher ed? And I think to your point. I am like you, very encouraged because I'm starting to see, you know, small, private, liberal arts campuses, for example, moving in really substantial ways around this.
I think about Bates College, where they launched several years ago now, an initiative called Purposeful Work and they're trying to emphasize career readiness in a very liberal arts friendly manner. And I think it's been, you know, a hugely successful initiative for them. They're one of many. That are really pushing into this dimension of, Hey, we recognize how important it's for a student to have a work integrated learning experience, and we're gonna build it into the academic structure and the things that we value and emphasize here.
It's not just accidental, it's not just in one small program and the nooks and crannies of the institution. Its core to what we do and who we
[00:11:59] Alex Sarlin: are. That's such a powerful set of points, and I think, you know, we've seen these, you know, so they call the mega universities, right? Western Governors and Southern New Hampshire University universities that serve non-traditional students.
Purdue is one of those as well. University of Maryland global campus, you know, a few of these who have really been innovative in recognizing prior learning, in focusing majors on work related outcomes, on doing all sorts of things to support non-traditional students. You've seen places like Northeastern University, university of Waterloo, and Canada that integrate internships and co-ops into their work.
And now to your point about Bates, right? I feel like we're starting to see, and it's just so long overdue, but starting to see a more of a mass movement where many different universities are starting to take seriously the idea of work integrated learning, of internships, of long-term projects, you know, all the things you've been advocating for.
I'm very encouraged as well, and it feels like a really exciting moment. You know, one thing that you wrote a long time ago, I, I mentioned this to you that always stuck with me because I think it's really interesting way to look at internships and education is there was a poll at one point that said that parents would prefer that their students get a Google internship than get into Harvard.
I think this was a number of years ago now, but these are two of the most selective. Experiences in the world, both of them, and I'd love to hear you talk about, you know, when we talk about having internships in a world where schools finally do recognize this and offer internships to a majority of their students, or almost any student who wants it, where are those internships going to come from?
The internship market has been confused to say the least. There's been all these accreditation issues or there's a marketplace for internships that's been sort of very selective. A lot of them are in construction. You think a lot about this. Tell us a little bit about the internship. World or sort of the the universe of work integrated learning experiences coming from industry and how that has to expand as well.
[00:13:51] Brandon Busteed: So go back to that Gal Purdue index study, right? One, it reveals how important having had a work experience, not just a work experience, but one that was connected to your learning, right? I had a job or an internship where I was able to apply what I was learning in the classroom. And interestingly enough, a lot of people have a paid job.
They don't feel it relates to anything they're learning or no one ever helped them connect the dots. So I'm gonna come back to that point, right? Because in simple terms, some of the lowest hanging fruit is. Existing students in your classrooms who are working in a paid job and you don't know it because that's just the job that they have.
75% of college students in the United States have a paid job while they're in college. Less than a third, say they have a job or an internship where they're able to apply what they're learning in the classroom. So this is about the connectivity, the synergy between these things. And so short of an internship, we have a lot of students showing up in our campuses and in our online courses.
That are already in a paid job. Are we connecting any of that? Are we helping them reflect on that or think more deeply about it other than the role that they're in? So I think that's one immediate call out. But back to your question, you won't find a bigger advocate for the value of internships than me.
I mean, I, there's a few of them out there, but like I'm the person out saying, Hey, we need more internships. What also. I have come to a painful realization around is that internships don't scale. There's no evidence that in the last 30 years, the number of internships offered in the United States has grown.
But let's put a fine point on that gap between demand and supply last year. There were 8.2 million college students who wanted an internship and only 3.6 million who got one? And of those only 2.5 million described in the way that these researchers kind of unpack their experience, a quality experience.
So 8.2 wanted one, 3.6, got one, only 2.5 had a quality experience. And so what I realized is that, yes, we need more employers. To step up in the form of offering more internships. Sure. That's a whole other thing that we can unpack, but we also need to come up with what I call derivatives of internships.
Right. And I'm starting to see, and I'm very encouraged by a number of those examples, you think about what a Parker Dewey is creating in the form of micro internships. You think about a company like virtual internships that's helping create. Virtual remote internship projects for students. You think of a company like Podium.
Yep. You think of a company like Ripen that's bringing work integrated case studies into the classroom. We've got a lot of really great examples of how we are growing that thing called internship. It might not be specifically an internship and the classic definition of it. But it is a way to expand the number of work integrated learning experiences students have.
And it's a lot of the reason why I chose to come to Edconic, right. We're we're creating what, what we describe as work immersive learning experiences. These are students who are interested in fashion. They get to come to Vogue Summer School. They get to learn fashion from every role within the fashion industry.
Right? And you think about an internship, classic internship. Let's say you do it in digital marketing, you might learn digital marketing. Are you really getting exposed to all the other functions and roles across the industry? Usually not, and that's where we try to lean in on the kinds of experiences we're giving students, right?
Is exposing them to all the different jobs that exist in that industry. Working on hands-on projects, getting feedback from those experts in those roles. It's not an internship in the classic definition, but in some ways it actually has benefits beyond what a traditional internship provides. So. I think we need as many of these examples as we can get, and yes, for as much as we might blame higher ed for not investing in enough of these experiences for students, let's just be really blunt.
The only way we get more internships is that we have more employers who offer them, who understand their value, who invest their time and efforts in creating these. And I would say the what's in it for employers is this. What better way to try before you buy than to create internship programs? Right.
This is my message for employers, right? You know, there's, there's all kinds of loss made in the wrong hiring decisions. Somebody who ends up ghosting you. I mean, there's all these challenges to hiring and recruiting talent. Building an internship program allows you to train people. Around your culture, not just your skills.
And that is something that leads to much more long-term employment. The, the employers who are hiring out of their internship programs, they're just flat out getting people who are a better fit for their organization, who can hit the ground running in a real job because they've had that internship experience.
And so it's this great on both sides for the student and for the employer. It's a try before you buy type scenario. I mean, I can't think of a more efficient talent development system, but yet. We're struggling to get more employers to play in the internship game.
[00:18:56] Alex Sarlin: I love that term, derivative internships.
And you, you know, you, you mentioned all of these companies doing it, these are all ed tech companies, right? Parker, Dewey, these are really our ed tech companies, and there are, there are others out there, I think of the, uh, you know, zip lines or yellow brick or there's a number trying to do this kind of thing in various formats.
Forage was doing it. It is. It's such a rich space. And I have two questions. One is about the sort of ed tech side of it, and then one is about the relationship between these types of derivative internships and college. Uh, let's actually start with the second one because you mentioned earlier that higher education is, is finally starting to adapt and sort of meet the customers or, you know, meet students and parents where they have been saying they are where they want work to be.
Part of the thinking for, for colleges. Starting to become more integrated, but you've also seen a mass movement against college. You've seen, especially across party lines, you've seen a larger number of parents say that college is not as important to the future of their children's life as it was. I mean, it used to be that, you know, everybody wanted their kids to go to college, and that number has gone down pretty continuously.
So you're seeing people sort of opt out of the higher education system in many cases because they want their students to get work experience, they wanna start their career earlier. You mentioned 75% of college students are working, but a lot of those students drop outta school and just work. Right. That is a, such a, such a large number, especially in community college.
So my question for you is this, as these derivative internships or these virtual internships continue to grow, what do you see as the relationship between them? And colleges. Is this a way to bring people back into higher ed to say, you are gonna graduate from this university with a four year degree, that's your broad education and multiple internships and skills, and you're gonna be able to hit the ground running.
You know, that seems like a beautiful mix, but I could also see these virtual internships working outside of the university system and people saying, I'm just gonna go right there. I'm gonna do this, do this virtual internship and get a, get a great job. Why do I even need college? How do you see them working together?
[00:20:53] Brandon Busteed: Yeah. Well, look, I think they're, they're already doing both of what you say, right? Examples where there are, what would've been a prospective higher ed student. Taking advantage of some of these other options. Right. And that, and that, that becomes a big category that includes the bootcamps and, you know, a lot of emerging skills training, you know, focused organizations and, and by the way, they've been around for a long time.
Right. You think about industry recognized credentials. This is not a new concept. It's sort of feels like it's new for higher ed because one of the trends that I'm encouraged by is more colleges, universities offering. Industry recognized credentials as part of their menu. So one of the fastest growing areas of higher ed, it isn't degree programs, it's non-degree credentials that they're offering in the form of options that you can take on campus.
And some of those are being done by students who are not enrolled in degree programs. And in fact, many are being done by degree enrolled students. Right? So you've got both of these things happening. To put a fine point on the higher ed value proposition, right? The college or university that isn't investing in more work oriented, career oriented support for students is gonna have a challenge competing.
It doesn't mean that you've gotta drop the liberal arts distinction and go all in on vocational training or however somebody might call it in a more derogatory fashion. It's a both and. And I think that both end has to be a strong embrace across higher ed because for a lot of people you say, what's the number one reason why Americans value higher ed?
The top reason, it's not one reason, it's not singular, but the number one reason by a mile is to get a good or better job. So to not understand that would be disrespectful of the will of the American people. Let's just start there, right? Like the number one reason why we value higher ed or why students choose to get a degree is to get a good or better job.
So let's honor that, but in honoring that, it's not as straightforward is we're just gonna do a hundred percent skill training. And it's also not as straightforward as we're a liberal arts institution. We're gonna stick to our guns on that and we're not gonna do anything outside of the traditional.
Liberal arts kind of framework and so, so I think the both and universities and colleges are winning right now. Those who are not embracing that ethos, I think are gonna have challenges going forward. This comes in the backdrop of rising higher ed costs, right? Or at least the perception of cost. And that's another silly thing that higher ed has kind of shot itself in the foot around is.
Rising tuition prices, which, which by the way, if you look at discount rates, there's evidence that last 10 years, higher ed tuition hasn't really grown. But it's the perception that it has grown out of control. That's one of the big problems. And when that happens, people start to ask the ROI question.
They're like, well, if I'm gonna pay x, I want to get why and real dollars out in terms of earnings and and outcomes. So I think there's a lot going on. In that declining confidence in higher education. But I would argue the single biggest one put aside the, you know, the political partisanship that is entered into the severe of higher ed.
It's a, it's a real serious challenge for higher ed. But tucking that aside for just a moment, it's the feelings that graduates aren't well prepared for success in the workplace. So, I go back to some other, you know, Gallup data that I was involved with. It's literally 11% of C-level business executives.
Strongly agree that college graduates are well prepared for success in the workplace, and it's only 13% of the US general population who strongly agree. So we have significant doubts about the work readiness of graduates. If we were confident that graduates were well prepared for success in the workplace, I don't know that we'd be having the ROI conversation as much as we are right now.
[00:24:44] Alex Sarlin: I totally agree. I wanna get to this EdTech question, but I have a, something you just said there, spurs another question for me that I'm really curious about your answer to. You've mentioned that universities have been a little bit slow to adapt and they've had this sort of false dualism, this false dichotomy between liberal arts ideal or sort of the ideal of what college looks like and vocational careerism.
And what always struck me is that the university system is very good at self-replicating, right? All, all of the administrators and professors, of course in a university. Came up through an academic system. So many of them have actually very little work experience with some exceptions, especially within business schools or certain types of schools.
But in a lot of ways, the people there have sort of succeeded in getting their dream job, or at least a job they like, hopefully through this sort of liberal arts college as college. And I feel like that's been part of the issue. Colleges don't respect. They think of vocational education or careerism as this way off on the side, like it's DeVry technical school and they look down on it and they really, really don't embrace it.
And they don't think of that sort of both end mentality that you're advocating. They think they push it to the side, they fight against it. Faculty committees fight against anything that feels vocational in some circumstances. Is my perception true there? You think that in any way is there a little bit of like the university system just sort of replicates itself and has ignored.
This sort of very clear, shouted industry trend from students and parents saying, no, what we want is a, a good or better job. We've been telling you that for years and years and years, and yet you keep shunting it to the side.
[00:26:17] Brandon Busteed: I think there's a lot of truth to it. You know, I've given more speeches than I can count and written more articles than I can remember on the importance of work integrated learning.
And I can tell you that if I had a nickel for every faculty member who's come up to me after a speech or sent me a snarky comment saying, you know, my job is not to get students jobs, right? Right. And on one hand I sort of understand what they're saying, right? They're talking about the longer term.
Career arc preparation. Right? I wanna train them to be critical thinkers and skilled communicators, and that that's not just about getting 'em a job. It's about, okay, so, so I get all that right. But I think to your point, it's really important to step back and say, you're right. A lot of faculty have gotten to their place of success.
A job that they're paid for, right? This was a career economic outcome for them by being successful in academia, many of whom have never had jobs, full-time jobs outside of the academic environment. But look, here's where I'm hopeful. These are all really bright people, right? Like I still haven't met faculty who I don't think of as really bright and talented, but the lack of work experience outside of higher education probably challenges their ability to integrate.
Real world work experience ideas in the curriculum, et cetera. That's where I love models like Ripen, right, who support FGO with that. But I'll tell you what I would love to see, and this is a tiny example of things that are starting to bubble up, is the idea of externships for faculty. We talk about getting students an internship, but if I could take a faculty member and give them, even if it's two weeks or four weeks, right?
We don't need to do long sabbatical timeframe, but an opportunity to go do an externship. With a major employer of any kind, I think they will come back with some really innovative ideas for how to do a better job of connecting what they're already teaching. Uh, you don't have to ask 'em to change what they're teaching.
It's just to find ways to draw connections. Yes. And in some ways little connections between the world of work. And what it is that I'm teaching, right? Or to a student's work experience and what we're learning in the classroom. And so I am convinced that little examples like exposing faculty to externship opportunities will scale some of the things we need for students.
Because you do that for one faculty member and they're gonna teach dozens and hundreds and thousands of students throughout the next several years. That impact, I think, could be really substantial. And so I'm starting to see more examples of colleges and universities that are carving out externship opportunities for faculty.
I think it's a brilliant idea.
[00:28:56] Alex Sarlin: I love that. So when EdTech companies, like the ones you've mentioned, or anybody listening to this podcast who works in ed tech, who is a founder or an operator, think about work immersive learning or career connected learning, you know, as it's sometimes called, is sort of a related field.
One thing that I think is really interesting about your approach, and you said this a few times, is it's not that the virtual internship or that the work experience should be totally detached. It's not that you know you're an English major and you're studying Greek mythology. And then you go do some digital marketing internship and it has nothing to do with it.
The ideal is that these things actually feed into each other. They come together. You're taking what you're learning in a broader education college and applying it, or at least seeing the connections between how it works in a. Workplace environment. Tell us more about if you are an ed tech company right now on any side of that divide, right?
You could be a ripe in already doing it. You could be somebody focusing, you know, could be a traditional publisher doing science curriculum for high schools. How might you think about helping bridge that gap and make those connections so that it doesn't feel like those are two separate lanes?
[00:30:01] Brandon Busteed: First of all, you know, we've mentioned several examples, different models, different companies that are doing versions of this, right?
And so there is a proliferation of innovation around how to do more work integrated learning how to do it at higher quality, how to do it at at greater scale, right? Those are our fundamental challenges and. Although I certainly believe there's a market for doing this outside of the education system, meaning, you know, separate from students who are enrolled in school or in college, I still believe that the biggest market, the biggest market opportunity and the biggest impact is going to be.
And embedding it in school, right? Where students go through the K 12 system and they can't graduate without touching these kinds of experiences or when they go to college, right? It's not something that, a small percentage experience, but it's ubiquitous. It's something that everybody does. I mean, dare I say, even a requirement for graduation, right?
That they hit the mark on one of these things. It should be. It's that important. So that's my bias, right? I, I believe there's a bigger market and a bigger impact opportunity to partner with the system and so on that point, right? You know, I think this is, I, I wrote an article a couple weeks ago about how co-teaching is going to be a hot new trend in higher ed.
And I'll just use it as an example because I've seen it in the model and the work that we do at Edconic. And it's, and it's a way, very simple example. All of our programs are co-designed and co-taught between industry experts. And teachers pedagogical experts, right? And it's that magic combination that brings this to life for students in a way that I don't know how you could otherwise.
Now, it might not be the example of co-teaching, but the idea of I'm creating a textbook, right? Why can't it not be created from inputs from industry with real sound, pedagogical expertise, and that all woven together. And I'll just give you examples of how this comes to life. You've got a manager and a company.
Who struggles to come up with a meaningful project for students. 'cause this is actually a real challenge. Like when you think about an internship, and I think, you know, somebody who's a teacher can help that person think about designing a project. Now, the teacher might not come up with a project example as specifically as.
The person from the industry who's like, no, no, no, this is what I need right now at a, at a general level. But they can help them create an idea of how to turn that into a meaningful opportunity for a student, for a student to kind of think through what they're learning along the way. Think about many workplace environments.
We don't take a lot of time to pause. And reflect and digest what happened every now and then we do that, but to take opportunities for reflective reconsideration, right on the work that we've done. That's a pedagogical design that can strengthen the work product. And so I see all kinds of powerful synergies between these two things.
Workplaces creating curriculum on their own usually has been pretty challenged. Educational institutions trying to create work integrated learning projects on their own in isolation usually struggle, but it's that co-teaching that I think is a really simple way for us to think about it. Short of actually physical people in a real classroom.
It's the example, uh, you know, I mentioned of a textbook or a project, right, where it's co-designed and co-created by people who are trained in educational pedagogy and people who are real experts in the industry and have a sense of, you know, exactly what, what a good work product might look like in that respect.
[00:33:24] Alex Sarlin: I hear such a clear and really powerful through line in this conversation about taking these different, I'm thinking of them as lanes, but these different areas of, of work and education that have different incentives, they have different people working in them. They have different, uh, mindsets and starting and really removing the barrier between them.
I mean, when you talk about giving credit for prior knowledge or military experience or for work experience, that's removing the barrier. We talk about externships for professors. That's removing the barrier, right? Let's get those teachers into the workplace to see what it's like. The co-teaching you just mentioned is obviously all about sort of reaching across the IL, so to speak, or reaching across the lane divider and saying, let's take a pedagogy specialist and a industry specialist and have them work together and provide their their expertise, and you can create something really powerful.
I have a little bit of a curve ball question from there, which is. What role might AI play in this? Because you know, when you have two different skill sets or knowledge sets that don't talk to each other enough, even if they're getting there sooner, could we have AI tools that help professors integrate work?
Could we have AI tools that help that industry expert, you're mentioning integrate pedagogy into their internships or into their virtual internships? Do you think there's a role that AI could play in either building these relationships or playing the role of one of the sides so that they're more bridged?
[00:34:40] Brandon Busteed: Yeah, look, I think I, you know, I'm gonna give you simple examples and I don't proclaim expertise in ai, and so I, I start with that disclaimer, but I think where I've been most excited is where. AI has been added as a coach, as a supplemental coach. You know, we've seen it in academic advising and tutoring.
I mean, this is where the Chegg of the world started and also where AI started to eat away at the Chegg market with Chad gt. But the point is, it's a tool that has been a coach to students. The applications I'm starting to see. Of personalized coaching, right? As a way to help students through some of the sticky points of whether it's an academic project or a work project.
I think that is gonna be really, really productive. And then I think it's like, look, I, I know this is gonna sound really simple. It's the translational aspects of, I'll give you an example. A student who. Was in a focus group that I was in, they were talking about, you know, whether or not the current work they're doing was applied to what they majored in, or was there a major applicable to what they're currently doing.
I'll never forget there's a student who was like, Nope, not at all. And the interviewer went on to say like, well, tell me, you know, what did, what did you major in? And this student said, well, I majored in English. And the interviewers kind of stumped and they were like, so help me understand how you don't see connections to that and what you're doing now.
And the person's current job was in public relations for a company. And it was just one of these interesting things where the student was like, oh yeah, I guess it is. But like. They were focused on different terms and definitions and it was like something about public relations,
[00:36:06] Alex Sarlin: persuasive argumentation, right?
[00:36:09] Brandon Busteed: And translate to English and vice versa. You're like, but wait a minute. You have a command of communication. And you know, it's like, I get it. So I know it sounds like a really simple example, but I've seen cool stories about. Take my resume and make it sound like a more applicable, you know, or take my transcript and extract from that transcript, the modern day skills that I learned that were there.
They're inherently there, but you don't see it. You don't sense it because you're using different words and different definitions, and so I think there's gonna be some. It's almost akin to language translation, right? I don't speak Spanish, but I've got a translator who helps me do it. It's like higher ed doesn't speak industry and industry doesn't speak higher ed, and so I do think, I know that sounds like a rather simple example, not to me, but a lot of our hangup is around language.
It's around the translational aspects of what is learned and how we can make more of those connections.
[00:37:01] Alex Sarlin: I don't think it's a simple example at all. I think that translation aspect is hugely important. And it's also indicative of, I think, a larger trend that you've been talking about here, which is that academia often serves as sort of a gatekeeper for academia.
It, it literally makes up its own language. It makes up its own jargon. It, it creates courses with names that nobody can understand and it does it on purpose. It it's not an accident, it's because it is trying to reinforce its own. Structure and its own status, and I think the ability to break that a little bit and say, oh, you majored in English.
Here are some of the things that you could put on a resume that come out of your English major or out of this particular class. It actually speaks to, I think, one of the core issues of why this gap exists in the first place and why, and to your point earlier, why so many CEOs think that people are not prepared for the workforce when they leave college because they speak.
College. They speak academia, right? At best they speak academia. They don't know the language of the workplace, they don't know the core skills. They're been trained to sort of think and do, you know, close reading or do particular types of statistical analyses that are very favored in the university or use certain tools.
Translation is incredibly important. I love that example. I think those are really, those are really powerful examples. And there's a whole suite of ed tech companies that could do this. It could even happen at the student level, right? I can imagine a college student coming back from their class and having a tool that says, this is the assignment I'm doing.
Can you translate that into, you know, you know, I want to go into this field. What does this have to do with that field? And it could actually tell you, that would be fascinating.
[00:38:30] Brandon Busteed: I think there's a lot of that, and I like my more hopeful. There's days where I'm pretty pessimistic about, you know, AI crushing things like creativity and innovation and creative thinking, because students just use it as a full crutch.
But my more hopeful side of that is that it may force us all. To be more thoughtful in the questions and the prompts that we ask. And of course, you know, if you think about that, again, that's my hopeful, you know, version of the AI impact is that in theory, if that's actually one of the things that happens, I think we could all afford to be better at asking more thoughtful questions.
More probing questions. Right? And I don't think we're naturally very good at that. And that's one of the things that I would like to believe AI may help us improve upon.
[00:39:13] Alex Sarlin: I think that's a pedagogy issue as well, right? If, if asking good questions is so important, which I think many professors and instructors and, and pedagogy specialists say it is then asking good questions of an AI should be a subset of that.
It makes. Perfect sense. I would also say that AI is one of, its superpowers is translation, right? I mean, both translation across languages, but translation across media formats, translation across jargon, translation. So I think there's, there's something very powerful there as well. I mean, there's an opportunity, I think for AI to break down disciplines, right?
I mean, if you're somebody taking classes in multiple disciplines, it's probably quite hard to see how they connect if there's no explicit way that they can act. But AI can find connections. It's very good at sort of taking ideas and finding how they connect. So I think that could be, it could be a really interesting part of how AI might help the academic and educational world.
I know we're running low on time. I have one more question for you and then I wanna ask you about a trend that you see in the, in the landscape. But my question for you is, you've mentioned, you know, Bates University, you've mentioned, obviously I wanna, we haven't talked enough about Ed Iconic. We should talk a little bit more about what you're actually doing.
But tell us a little bit about some of the bright spots. You say, you know, sometimes you get down about ai, sometimes it's feels like things are moving too slowly and that work immersive learning space. But can you point out some people who are doing really innovative and interesting things that you feel like are pointing the way forward?
[00:40:30] Brandon Busteed: We've mentioned a few of those players where we have, I don't know, I'm gonna say 10, 11, 12 different organizations that are doing some pretty cutting edge work. One that we didn't mention is Saxbys Coffee. Right? And some people will know if they've got a Saxbys on campus, but these are on one hand coffee shops that are run on college campuses, but they're entirely run by students.
And they are trained on an experiential learning platform where they run the coffee shop and they're. Getting academic credit for essentially running the coffee shop on campus. And so I'm gonna call that a low tech innovation example where why wouldn't we have more functions on a college campus that are actually run by students?
I mean, we have work study, but that's been an entirely different dimension that's been, for most campuses, entirely disconnected from academics. But the experiential learning platform that that Saxbys has built with this is giving students real experience. It's translating that experience into academic credit, and it's just, again, another one of those brilliant examples out there of how we're taking advantage of naturally occurring things.
There are functions and stores and retail and uh, you know, name all the different things that exist on a college campus. Why shouldn't we have more students involved in running those functions? So, you know, again, one that we hadn't talked about that I'm a pretty big fan of these days, and the sky's the limit, right?
Coffee shop is what Saxbys has been built around. But I think there's pretty much any function on a college campus that ought to have. Students involved in work and where they're also getting academic credit. You know, we don't, we don't necessarily always have to look beyond the campus for that help.
[00:42:12] Alex Sarlin: I love that.
And I think it speaks to what you were saying earlier about 75% of students are working while they're in college, but only a third or so feel like it has any relevance to that. So that putting the pieces together, having credit, having academic skills, having experiential learning be part of it. I've never heard of that.
That's a fascinating, that's a really cool, yeah. When you look at the landscape right now, what do you feel like is right around the next curve? Is there a trend that you see? You've been in this for a while, you've been paying such close attention to so many aspects of this. What is an exciting trend that you see that others listening to this may not have spotted, whether it's to do with work immersive learning, or the future of career connections, or any other aspect of ed tech or education.
[00:42:54] Brandon Busteed: Yeah, so look, we've talked about the gap in demand and supply of internships, right? I think fundamentally that's the problem that needs to be solved for in the next decade or two to come and yes, in part more internships and the way we think about it in its classic definition, but the things that are derivatives of internships, right?
Internship adjacent experiences. And so that's a lot of, what is the example of Edconic right now? You know, we've created a. A special version of this model where we partner with globally recognized organizations like Vogue and Sotheby's and Manchester City and the New York Times, and we're creating work immersive learning experiences for students.
And you might say, okay, well it must help that these are globally recognized. Brand names, you know, they track students to the program. Sure. But what makes it really, really unique for students is that goes back to this co-design, co-taught piece, right? Between teachers and industry experts. The people who are in these roles, at the organizations that we partner with are the best in the world at their job.
They're not just an average creative director, right? If you become the global creative director at a place like Vogue, you didn't get to that place without being one of the best, if not the best in the world. And so it's not just unlocking iconic brands and globally recognized names. It's about unlocking the world class talent.
That sits within those industry leaders, and that just kind of changes the game for students, right? They're learning from the Michael Jordans of their role, right? If we want to use the example of a sports, you know, greatest of all time. They're being inspired by that example as well. And they're understanding that there are many different roles you can do within these industries.
And I think that alone is opening up where we can open up more ideas in students' minds. I mean, this was an interesting study. There's about 40,000 different jobs in the world according to job taxonomy, right? 40,000 different kinds of jobs. And when you ask students, high school students to name, you know, the different jobs available to them.
They come up with about 10 unaided. They come up with about 10. So I think in addition to providing more access to these work integrated learning experiences, it's also just opening up students' exposure. And I think that can come in really simple ways. So one of the things I was inspired by in a book I read recently on Hacking Colleges, the title, and you know, we're talking about encouraging students, just interview.
Half a dozen people about what they do in their job. Okay? So I may not be able to get an internship. I hope I can, right? But short of that, can I just interview six or seven people that I know? And by the way, almost everybody is willing to talk about it, right? Like, oh, what do I do? You know, it's, it's fun.
It's, it's interesting for the person who's being asked, but even something as simple as that, Alex is, I think, a really powerful way. To get students broader exposure to the world of work. What is out there? What is the potential? And when unaided, they can come up with like 10 different jobs in a world of 40,000 jobs.
Like, come on man, we can do a better, we, we can do a better job at helping them see jobs in a much more profound way.
[00:46:07] Alex Sarlin: I love, that's career exposure, informational interviewing, shadowing perhaps. Absolutely. And, and you mentioned that that really interesting idea of being able to do an internship where you try on many different jobs within the same, within the same organization.
Try on you see how everything works together. Career exposure so, so powerful. I, I totally agree. And that it feels like a trend that really is coming and, and, uh, something that people are gonna really think about. Everybody listening to this should definitely take note. Brandon Busteed is the CEO of Edconic.
He's a leading expert on work integrated learning. He was president at, at Kaplan University Partners. He was at Gallup. He's done a ton of things and you should definitely check out all his writing, including the recent piece on co-teaching. It was really, really interesting. Thank you for being here with us on EdTech Insiders.
[00:46:52] Brandon Busteed: Thanks, Alex. Yep. Take care.
[00:46:54] Alex Sarlin: Thanks for listening to this episode of EdTech Insiders. If you like the podcast, remember to rate it and share it with others in the EdTech community. For those who want even more, EdTech Insider, subscribe to the Free EdTech Insiders Newsletter on substack.
