Edtech Insiders
Edtech Insiders
GED at 80: Reinventing Adult Learning for a Skills-First Future with CT Turner
CT Turner is President of GED Testing Service and VP at Pearson’s Enterprise Learning and Skills division. A recognized leader in workforce development, he champions equitable economic opportunities for underserved populations. CT supports adult education and workforce initiatives, holding degrees from Indiana University and Wichita State University.
💡 5 Things You’ll Learn in This Episode:
- How the GED has evolved over 80 years to serve a changing learner population
- The role of GED in bridging education, workforce, and economic opportunity
- How technology, gamification, and AI are transforming GED preparation
- Stories of GED graduates who turned barriers into breakthroughs
- The future of skills-based pathways and credentials beyond the high school diploma
✨ Episode Highlights:
[00:02:23] CT Turner’s journey from higher ed to leading the GED
[00:05:42] How GED bridges education, workforce, and opportunity
[00:09:08] Shifts from degrees to skills in today’s job market
[00:13:03] GED success stories from the U.S. and abroad
[00:16:10] Tech tools transforming GED prep, from AI to apps
[00:23:49] Higher persistence and pass rates with the GED app
[00:25:59] Gamification and nudges keeping learners engaged
[00:32:43] AI as a safe space for motivation and guidance
[00:37:28] Building direct pathways from GED to careers
[00:44:08] Future of contextualized tests and digital credentials
[00:48:19] Why “non-traditional” learners are now the norm
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[00:00:00] CT Turner: And so we're providing some core content. We're doing some gamification in it. We're building some AI tools within it. It's basically a more streamlined journey because a lot of research we did, the learners kept coming back and saying, yes, I know all these things are out there, but just tell me what I need to do.
So what we've done is we've created these couple of platforms that's aimed at most all learners in some aspect. Right now we're moving down the technology chain or up the technology chain to where we're starting to personalize. And so you, Alex, are going to have a different profile than say someone fresh out of K 12 or finish grade 11 and they have a semester left.
Or someone who's retooling from a factory job and is 45.
[00:00:48] Alex Sarlin: Welcome to EdTech Insiders, the top podcast covering the education technology industry from funding rounds to impact to AI developments across early childhood K 12 higher ed and work. You'll find it all here at EdTech Insiders. Remember to subscribe to the pod. Check out our newsletter and also our event calendar.
And to go deeper, check out EdTech Insiders Plus where you can get premium content access to our WhatsApp channel, early access to events and back channel insights from Alex and Ben. Hope you enjoy today's pod.
We have a really incredible guest. Today on this week's Ed Tech Insiders, we are here with CT Turner. He's the president of the GED testing service and VP at Pearson's Enterprise Learning and Skills Division. He's a recognized leader in workforce development and champions, equitable economic opportunities for underserved populations.
CT supports adult education and workforce initiatives and holds degrees from Indiana University and Wichita State University, CT Turner. Welcome to EdTech Insiders.
[00:01:59] CT Turner: Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be on today and chat about adult learners and EdTech, which is an audience you don't often hear about in EdTech.
So excited to be here.
[00:02:09] Alex Sarlin: A hundred percent. So first off, tell us about your story in EdTech. How did you get interested in adult education, in workforce initiatives and in GED testing service and GED is a huge international test. How did you get into it in the first place?
[00:02:23] CT Turner: Sure. So I started out mostly in higher education, so I worked for the chief of staff at the Indiana University system.
They were trying integrated one of the first public systems to do integrated marketing across all of their campus systems. Became super interested in data, and then the intersection of how that data can influence policy. I went to go work at a SU for a period of time and then at the same time started a consulting company with that chief of staff.
We did consulting projects for tons of universities, boards, fundraising, marketing, all of those different things. And I would say I did a lot of traveling. Probably too much traveling. That was one of the things that led me to kind of moving on. But the critical thing for me is I talked a lot with faculty and a lot of the faculty at that point in time kept talking about non-traditional students.
Right. And it was very sort of dismissive, like that's a side audience, that sort of thing, and kind of patting them on the head. And it really rubbed me the wrong way. 'cause if you looked at the demographics, it soon was not going to be non-traditional. They were going to be the traditional students. Right?
That's right. That is the case today. And so that really was a driving force for me. I did some work for a CE, the American Council on Education, which at the time was full owner of the GED testing program. And so it was an interesting opportunity for me to go over there. And really look at the program and start to make sure that the program was preparing adults for entry into the workforce, high level career training programs, and for post-secondary programs, whether that be two year or four year, it was doing an okay job.
It was a lot of reading comprehension, wasn't a lot of problem solving, critical thinking skills. We totally looked to revamp that program. We talked to lots of foundations. Gates Foundation was involved for a period of time, but this is my story over and over again, is all of these foundations, 30 foundations at a CE, convene, they all patted us on the head and said, well.
This is really interesting, but we're focused on K 12 or this is really interesting, but our mission is really around post-secondary achievement. And so Pearson was the only entity that stepped up to the plate and said, let's do this thing together. And so that led me to GED and the joint venture with a CE and Pearson.
And so that's how I got into this space was really that desire to do something for those learners. My grandfather was a GED graduate. I was basically the first traditional college student in my family, so it was kind of a personal thing for me and I saw a way to make a real impact to a population that's often left behind.
[00:04:50] Alex Sarlin: Yes. So speaking of populations often left behind, the GED plays a very specific role in the education ecosystem and you know, I mentioned international, but it wasn't always international. Traditionally was in the US system, but now it is being used internationally. I'd love to hear you talk about that, but it plays this very specific role in sort of helping bridge.
The two giant systems that we have, the secondary and the post-secondary in the United States. And as you say, a lot of people focus on one or the other foundation's, nonprofits, investors like to think about either secondary K 12 or secondary education high school and or post-secondary. And Gigi is really about the connection.
So tell us a little bit about how you think about the role that GED plays in educational system and what populations it really. Basically saves. I think many people, I think there are a lot of people who would truly fall through the cracks if it were not for the GED.
[00:05:42] CT Turner: Yeah, I think that's absolutely true.
I know that to be true. Yeah. I would say, first off, I talked a little bit about this. You just mentioned this is bridging the gap between K 12 and post-secondary. Right. I actually see us bridging the gap more so now, and I'm glad the rest of the world is catching up between education and career opportunities.
Right. And economic opportunities. Yeah. And so the role at its core that this program served is really about helping individuals be prepared. For career opportunities and economic impact, right? They have a world open up to them that wasn't available, and at times we have this ripple effect, and so we're impacting generations.
I can't tell you the number of stories where a mom bucks up goes through this really difficult journey because she wants her kid to see that she earned that high school credential. She goes through all that. She graduates. And then it's instilled in that daughter that she's going to graduate, she's going to get a four year degree, whatever that is.
It just has that ripple effect. It can end the cycle of poverty and sometimes end the cycle of violence within families as well. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that's a critical thing. And so really bridging that gap between whatever happened in K 12, and there's a variety of reasons for this, right? And there's some buckets of people that fall into these.
Sort of gaps. And one thing is I would say 40 ish percent of our learners identify some kind of impairment, whether visual that they didn't know about, usually impairment alerting thing, dyscalculia. Something along those lines that impacted their ability to really persist in a K 12 setting. Then there are people who have I, I mean, a good percentage I would say, of our learners experience some type of early childhood trauma.
It's shocking that that still happens in this country, but it's really, really prevalent. And so that really impacts the way they think. They learn, the stability that they have at home. And so education goes a little bit farther down that list when you're trying to survive. And so intermittent homelessness, all of those sorts of things play into this.
Yep. And then of course there is a population, which maybe is 20% of our learners who do this because it's a way to get on faster. Something standing in their way. Maybe it's a seat time requirement. Maybe they are more than qualified on the education spectrum. They just need a credential to get out to go to an Ivy League institution.
There's a 14-year-old who did that a couple of years ago. Yep. He probably has a PhD by now.
[00:08:12] Alex Sarlin: And I mean, what a different set of. Folks that are being served by the same test. You know, I used to use the phrase a lot with higher education. The traditional secondary world has always had a little bit of a monopoly on mobility in the us, right?
They've been considered for a long time the only path to successful career outcomes, and that's been more and more true as jobs have changed their requirements. But you're telling us a different story, which I think you're right. You've been ahead of the curve on this and the world is catching up, which is that we're starting to see that monopoly on mobility.
Fade away a little bit, and it's not that every student is headed for a four year university. It's not that every student wants to or should have to, or that should be even part of their life. People are thinking about how do I make the best life for myself? That may definitely might include college. It might include associate's degree.
It might be going straight to work. Tell us about that. College and career readiness, college versus career readiness. Let's dive into it a little more because it clearly has passion for you.
[00:09:08] CT Turner: Sure. When I talk about the world catching up, this is exciting for me because I would say at least anytime that I've been in education, this is the most level playing field I've seen for our learners, probably, right?
In terms of work. And so it used to be that you got your traditional high school diploma. You could get a job at the Ford factory, earn enough to retire on, maybe have a cottage by the lake, whatever it was, right? And then it was the four year degree. How critical the four year degree was still is for many roles, right?
Don't get me wrong. And then basically, if you didn't have that, you earned your equivalency diploma. The wage gap was wide, right? It started to narrow. Once you got your GED credential and you went into the workforce, it started to narrow over time. But we really started to only see a good, good narrowing or catching up when you had a two year degree or a four year degree.
Now, fast forward to what's happening today with demographic shifts, AI revolution that's coming, all of those sorts of things is now it's really about skills and it's really about different pathways to get to different. Career opportunities and different jobs, right? And so now our learners can go into a career training program, GED, to career training program.
Oftentimes, sometimes it's subsidized for them. They go into these programs, they can land in a job, a good paying job right out of the gate. And then the best thing about this is, say energy for instance, right? That's a growing field, especially with AI and just our consumption of. Electricity, right? It's a growing field.
You go in, you get this career opportunity, and that's not gonna be your terminal job. You just know that, right? But you get in this job, good paying job, but now you're exposed to six different verticals within industry where you could have a pathway that goes years and years and years to retirement, if you will, and they kind of suit your individual needs and kind of what you're accustomed to or what you're.
Predisposed to do right or good at. And so you go into these pathway programs and then oftentimes once you're in a program like that, your employer will subsidize or even pay for you to be reskilled or upskill into the next job. And so it's sort of perpetuating cycle, and so much of education is shifting from higher education.
There is a role for higher education. There absolutely is a role for higher education, but much of now what's going to be education is going to happen within the boundaries of an employer. Right. It's learning in the flow of work and it's learning while at work.
[00:11:33] Alex Sarlin: You're mentioning so many of these massive shifts in perspective and in sort of just sociological shifts that we've seen in education over the last few years.
One is, as you just mentioned, the street shift from employers starting to play more of a role in training. I mean, there's always been training, there's always been learning and development, but I think because the world is changing so quickly, there's more and more recognition that employers have something to offer that is.
Really different than what traditional universities or educational institutions have to offer. And that those can be complimentary. In some cases, they may even be more valuable. There was a famous, Brandon Buse posted a long time ago, a really interesting article about how many parents would prefer their kids get a Google internship than a Harvard degree.
And that's exactly the shift we're sort of talking about there. And that those are obviously both very elite institutions, but it's, you know, even Steven side by side. The work, the employer, the skills imbued by an employer who's doing upskilling may even be more valuable than the highest level of elite undergraduate university.
It's really interesting to see that, but you're also talking about the shift between what entry level jobs look like, which is really, it changed a lot. So let's get specific here. You've had a front row seat to countless GED success stories. You said many learning differences that have been discovered.
Dyscalculia, people who have had trauma, tell us some of the stories of people who have gone into these. Types of pathways that you're mentioning here, where instead of the traditional high school, college, then you enter the workforce. They made their own paths and it's worked out really well.
[00:13:03] CT Turner: Yeah, so I would say two stories stick out always in my mind.
This is the toughest question I asked me all day, right? To narrow this down. Right. But the tie that we have. The two stories I have in my mind, I'm thinking they actually are more traditional pathway, but kind of illustrate the storyline, right? Sure. And so let me just give you two of those. The one that always comes front of mind for me.
The first one in the US specifically is this woman that I met, she was abused as a child in her home multiple, multiple times. Single mother was homeless for periods of time in and out of different homes with boyfriends. Finally thought they sort of settled down. The mom got married. She was sexually abused by the father.
Different types of abuse. Okay? Basically as soon as she could get out or she was kicked out, I can't remember exactly what the push was. She got out of the house. She tried to make ends meet. She was working these jobs. A coworker came to her and said, you know, I think there's a local GED program. I think this would be good for you.
As like many GED learner stories. She said, okay, maybe. But that's scary, right? She didn't say that to the woman, but she told this to me. It's really scary. I failed the first time through. Right? I'm probably not meant to do that. I probably can't learn. So bottom line is she gets in this program, she has someone in her corner.
A lot of times GED grads have someone in their corner for the first time in their life. When they go through the program, and so someone that believed in her gave her a kick in the pants when she needed it, gave her those words of encouragement. About a year later, she graduates earns her GEDA credential or diploma from that particular state.
She enrolls in a college program because someone at the local community college came in. They took her over there. She felt like she didn't belong, but she stuck it out. Bottom line, she got her four year degree and enrolled. And she's now ready to take the bar. Wow. Be a lawyer. So a number of G grads I know have earned energy to credential and have PhDs.
So it's absolutely in the realm of possibility for many of these learners. And then the second one is an international take. So Sure. This particular guy, his family was fleeing some violence in his home country. Family members were killed, went to a refugee camp. His father died just before he was born.
He was born and raised completely in a refugee camp. They found out about the GED program. It was the only pathway, the only way out for him to go to a university was through a GED program. And so he went to a tent, studied online, whatever he could do. He went and he took that test, and then he went to a university in a neighboring country who welcomed him.
He's studying to become an educator and his goal is to go back. To a similar situation and help others basically like him. Wow. And so those are a couple stories that definitely stick out in my mind. And then just the last thing I would say is people still have some perceptions about what GD grads can do and who GD grads are.
And I just like to point out that Mary Daley, presidents of the San Francisco Federal Reserve Boards A GED graduate. We've had governors that have been graduates ambassadors. The astronaut with most time and space is A GED graduate, so the list sort of goes on and on.
[00:16:10] Alex Sarlin: That's fantastic. I mean, you mentioned studying online in passing as in one of those stories, and I think we should talk about the technological aspect of the GED.
There's lots of different ways in which technology intersects with the GED world, but one of them, as you just mentioned, is the idea that the GED offers this alternative pathway to a high school diploma. It's sort of equivalency diploma so that it can be studied and it can be moved through in a totally different.
Formats than sitting in classrooms and seat time, then struggling through those math tests that we do. So tell me a little bit more about the technological aspect of the GED and how you use technology for both the studying and the delivery of the test and all the different parts. Sure.
[00:16:51] CT Turner: So I'll get on my soapbox for just a minute.
I really do love ed tech. I love what we can do with technology, but I think we're still in our toddler years. And I think EdTech in some ways is faltered, or the belief in EdTech has faltered a little bit by some communities because we focused a lot on technology for technology's sake and bells and whistles and things that we can create when in the end, the thing that needs to be driving us.
Is really the learner outcomes, right? Did we move that learner forward? Do we impact their life? Do we impact their learning for better? Right? And are they persisting at a higher rate or is it just something that's a cool tool to look at in a cool dashboard, right? And something nice that we could do. And so you really have to tie those things back to learner outcomes.
And so sometimes looks like we're a little bit slow on the curve. We're not gonna implement anything unless we know it's going to help the learner. And so we'll AB test something to death sometimes 'cause we're not quite sure. 'cause we don't want something to stand in the way of our learners because they can easily get derailed, very easily, get derailed.
And so that's just kind of my quick soapbox, I would say.
[00:17:57] Alex Sarlin: That's fair. And
[00:17:58] CT Turner: so one of the things people might not know about GD learners is we have these local programs that are partially. Federal funded with state matching funds. About 30% of people who are studying for the GD test go through these local programs, have a teacher, et cetera, some type of a program, but the rest of the learners are doing this on their own, completely on their own.
Sometimes they're afraid to walk into a classroom. They didn't do so well the first time through, or they had a teacher that caused them to not believe in themselves, whatever it might be. And so these learners are doing it on their own. And so we've done some things that are really critical. It used to be really uneven if you were in, I won't say the state, but if you were in one state, it could take you six weeks to get your scores back.
Now because of what we built, you go and take the test. By the time you get home, maybe before you get home on your gd.com account, your score is there with very, very few exceptions. And so that's something that sped things up because again, our learners can stall. And if you know, if you passed, you can breathe a sigh of relief, you can get going on that next subject.
Or if you didn't pass, you'll know right away and you'll get a detailed score report that will tell you exactly what you need to remediate on. And so we've built this ged.com account that everyone needs. And it's basically a hub. It provides you some resources, recommendation. You can schedule the test there.
You get your score results back. You can get your electronic credentials pushed that way. And so that's been really critical for our learners. We have like a study page that we've set up, and then just most recently, about a year ago, we launched a new app. And so the app is not just a reflection of what gd.com is on the website.
It's a totally different way of looking at things and really focused first on the self-serve learner. Mm-hmm. And so we're providing some core content, we're doing some gamification in it. We're building some AI tools within it. It's basically a more streamlined journey because a lot of research we did, the learners kept coming back and saying, yes, I know all these things are out there, but just tell me what I need to do.
So what we've done is we've created these couple of platforms that's aimed at most all learners in some aspect. Right now we're moving down the technology chain or up the technology chain to where we're starting to personalize. And so you, Alex, are going to have a different profile than say someone fresh out of K 12 or finish grade 11 and they have a semester left.
Or someone who's retooling from a factory job and is 45. And so you might have different things going on in your life. You might be motivated different ways. And so based on those profiles then can we start recommending things to you at different points in time? Because for Alex, you would stall, if we start talking about career exploration right away, your head would explode.
Right, just as an example, obviously, and then someone else. They need that motivation to persist, to say, I have a career in mind. I see this next step for me, and these three next steps for me. And so where you insert these things into the journey really will depend on the user profile. And so in the app, then AI of course is everywhere, right?
And I'm super excited about the promise of AI and some really fundamental things that are already starting to happen with ai. And so we've built an AI math tutor on the app. It has guardrails, it doesn't hallucinate, it's built directly against curriculum for the GED test. Doesn't hallucinate. It's scaffolded.
And so if you go on, if you are at a 10th grade level or a ninth grade level based on the language that you're using when you're talking or chatting with the ai, it will adjust how it reacts to you. So it's scaffolded. And then also it has a language layer that supports over 200 languages. So if your first language is Portuguese, for instance, and you're learning about a platform that could be a software platform, political platform, an actual physical platform, you'd say, I don't understand this.
Explain this to me in Portuguese, and then it's going to explain that concept to you on the fly in Portuguese.
[00:21:57] Alex Sarlin: Yeah. Uh, you mentioned being cautious and very careful with using technology, which totally makes sense when you have a vulnerable population. But you've also mentioned so many of the positive capabilities and affordances that EdTech provides, right?
Translation, the personalization, the access. I'm sure the app is free. They can, it's on your phone and is every day in your pocket. It could do gamifications and reminders and remind you about your study plan or keep you informed about the dates of the test and how to get there. AI tutoring is obviously a really hot topic in ed tech right now and a lot of people are approaching it and these are all really powerful techniques.
I'm curious as you, the self-serve learner that you're talking about, I'm sure you combine all the different aspects of GED learners you're talking about. There are some who are racing ahead. They're just trying to get their diploma so they can get into college or go to work a job as early as possible, and that's a 20%, but for the 80% and then the self-serve population, that is a subsegment of them.
How have you seen some of these technology tools working? What kind of usage are you seeing on the GED app? Are you feeling like you're on the right path to helping this really important and very vulnerable population start to get their head around trauma informed population in many cases, get their head around this process and getting themselves from wherever they are now to the other side of the GED?
[00:23:15] CT Turner: Yeah, absolutely. We've had the app in the field. We're still going through some core. Modifications before we launch it. We we're on iOS before we kind of replicate this over on Android and such. But what we're seeing so far, we're keeping, I mean our North Star, some key data points, right? And so we know if a student does a certain action, they're more likely to persist to the next step if they do the next action and so forth and so on.
And so we're already starting to see an increase. We had a 9% jump in the students who took that first step, who use the app versus those that are using. The portal are doing it on their own.
[00:23:49] Alex Sarlin: Right, right.
[00:23:50] CT Turner: Who aren't using the app. We also saw a higher pass rate on the first test for those that are using the app and persisting on to take that first test in a shorter period of time.
And then we're also starting to see, and again, by the time we implemented this and someone's full journey, it's fairly early on. But we're already starting to see an increase in the number of people who persist through all four of the core tests and are actually earning their equivalency diploma.
[00:24:14] Alex Sarlin: That's phenomenal. And for those who don't know there, right, there are four different subject area specific tests that add up to the diploma. Can you just outline them for us?
[00:24:22] CT Turner: Yeah, that's right. So there's math, there's social studies, there's science and language arts. So there are different subjects or multiple subjects that are still measured within those named tests.
And then problem solving and critical skills are cut across all four of the subject areas.
[00:24:38] Alex Sarlin: Right. Gamification or sort of using game mechanics in the service of persistence and of learning has been a hot topic in education for decades, and we still see Duolingo. We just saw Google is now doing some interesting language learning that is competing with Duolingo.
It's actually affecting Duolingo stock as of today. But gamification has been. One of the big proven techniques in EdTech over the last couple of decades, Kahoot, lots of different big EdTech companies have really been built on that foundation It feels like, you know, when you mentioned that these four different subjects, you put them together and you get the diploma, each one, it consists of all these different disparate concepts that you have to put together.
It feels like the GE. Gamification seems like a very promising technique for it, and I'm curious how you're thinking about that particular style of learning. You want people to be coming back every day or ev often to study. You want them to stay on task, and if they're self-serve, they may not have somebody in their corner.
Hopefully they do, saying, Hey, remember, one of the things you wanna do today is keep studying. How have you found the gamification stuff to be working?
[00:25:37] CT Turner: Sure. I think those are two things that I would call out. One is gamification and one is just building systems to do the things that you're chatting about.
Right. And so on the gamification front, absolutely. We have a metric we're looking at who comes back the next day after downloading the app, setting up an account, how many people are back day, over day, over a certain period of time. We're absolutely looking at that. We have streaks built in.
[00:25:59] Alex Sarlin: Exactly. You
[00:25:59] CT Turner: know, those sort of things that we know are popular on some of the other apps, and that keeps our learners coming back.
We're hearing stories of learners who are studying, you know, for 15 minutes on their bus ride, 20 minutes on their bus ride every day.
[00:26:11] Alex Sarlin: Exactly. And it's a great
[00:26:11] CT Turner: way for them to have a streak. They gain momentum and Yes, absolutely. The other thing I'll say is not necessarily gamification, but it goes to the point of a self-service learner who doesn't have someone sort of in their corner and personally sort of nudging them.
What do you do with that learner rather than just serving up content? Right, and so one of the things that we're working on with one of our partners, we have pieces of this in our system already, where we give encouragement and nudges at different times in the journey. We'll send a text, different parts in the journey, but the promise of kind of new machine learning, and then AI in general.
Super, super powerful. I think because we're working with a partner who's been testing this out, and basically you have a curriculum AI built into it, not built into it. It doesn't really matter. You go in and you put an algorithm on the back of it and you map it to the curriculum. And you look at how much time you're studying this week, how they did on a quiz, whatever those metrics are, you put those in place and then it automatically feeds into the system.
And then let's say you have an advisor or a coach who's there, and maybe you have 500 students and you're a coach. Yes. And basically you would get a stoplight, like a red, yellow, or green, and it would say this week. Miranda is yellow and this is why, right? And so then what it could also do is if she opts into text messages, either a person can push it something out to them and say, Hey, you can do this.
50% of people did this this week, blah, blah, blah. Or you can actually have the machine do that. So you could program these nudges in and these messages of encouragement. In, and then they can send them directly to the learner automated. And so there are ways to do that and we, what we have to figure out is when is the personal touch necessary and when, you know, we can do that in an automated way.
But just the fact that we can look at each individual's learner journey down the road and start really personalizing those things and hitting them when, when needed. That's really, really powerful.
[00:28:03] Alex Sarlin: Yeah, and I think that question that you're asking, you know, where is the line between the need for a personal touch, meaning a human intervention and AI intervention?
This is something happening throughout the ed tech field. Certainly in tutoring, it's happening in sort of every area, because that is the big question of the day. Now that we have these. Scalable, really powerful intelligence systems that can actually intervene. They can use data, they can use personal history or user history, they can use curriculum.
You know, they sort of have access to all of these different data sets that could put them together and create interventions. But there's still this motivation issue, this accountability and motivation issue that we know is a human. You know, people don't respond. Text messages can help remind people to do something if they want to do it.
Automated text doesn't really change your core beliefs about yourself or your core self-efficacy, and I think people are always trying to figure out where that lies. I'm curious if you have any insights so far, because I think you are probably at the cutting edge of that question of where do you need to really think about that human.
Versus an automated system, even a powerful automated system.
[00:29:07] CT Turner: So we come into contact with hundreds of thousands of learners directly every year. I bet. So, yes. As opposed to some other places in ed Tech where you go through an instructor led or there's a system, or there's a district, whatever it is. Like it's direct to learner.
[00:29:21] Alex Sarlin: Right. And so
[00:29:22] CT Turner: there's just tons of opportunities, but tons of responsibility I think, that come with that. Right. And one of the things I think is we found to be really interesting. So we can do surveys, right? And we reach out to our learners often and we talk with them and say, do you like AI for this? Do you know what do you wish We ask 'em, all of those sorts of things.
And we have a program called GED Works and GE Plus. And so GD Works is actually paid by your employer. And so let's say, I don't know what employer I can say or can't say at this point. Let's say one of the world's largest retailers that doesn't have brick and mortar stores. Okay. So we work with them.
And so basically they wanna hire some folks and they don't necessarily didn't complete high school. And so it's a helpful thing for recruitment and retention when your employer says, I'll invest in you, right? And I'll pay for you to do this thing. And then also you're more likely to stay in a high turnover job if your employer's investing in your education.
Right? So with those learners, we have a couple different things go on. And they have advisors, they have intake, and they're having touchpoints with their advisors and they're doing some, we're doing some machine learning things and some, some nudges. And. Event based emails and texts and things like that.
So we're learning from that. The other thing I'll say is since implementing AI Chatbot, we did it internationally pretty extensively. Then we rolled it out in small pilots. 'cause again, we wanna make sure we're actually helping our learners. Right. Bottom line again on this. So we implemented this across the us.
We monitor it super, super closely, and in the first couple months, it was just shocking to me to see the results. So the students, even though it says it's ai, they interact with it like it's a human, which I think is a really good thing for the most part because it's, it's strangely empathetic at times when learners have really difficult things going on in their lives.
It's saying, I'm sorry this is happening to you, and it doesn't go down a rabbit hole and give them bad advice or anything along those lines, right? It's very strict in how we've set that up, but they ask way more questions of the AI than they would a call center agent. Because there's that shame and fear that comes with asking dumb questions.
These aren't dumb questions that they have. They're essential questions that they have. And so they'll ask 10 questions instead of two questions that they really have to the ai. More detailed questions, and then the AI's trained on all the complicated policies. Every state has different policies. It will deliver the policies exactly what you need, what the next steps are.
Push you to the next thing depending on where you're located. So I think that's really helpful. And then sort of the last thing I will say is AI has been super helpful in a couple different pilots too, because right now, if you're studying on your own, a lot of programs you, you do these things, you click these buttons, sometimes you watch videos.
And sometimes you zone out when you watch the videos. I zone out sometimes when I try to watch the videos, right? My attention span's gotten worse, I think, as I've gotten older, surprisingly. And so you zone out and then you do this quiz, and then you kind of move on. So how much of that content did you retain and how did it really impact you?
And so with ai, you can set the curriculum up where it's almost the Socratic method. It's not going to move forward until you respond back or you ask another question. It's going to make sure you have that, those fundamentals down before you go onto the next thing. That doesn't mean you can't skip a chapter ahead, but it's going to say, Hey, you missed a fundamental step in section three fractions.
If you don't have this, you can't go on, you know, to section four. So it starts to do those sorts of things. And so again, it's about motivation, but it's also about guidance, I would say.
[00:32:43] Alex Sarlin: It's a really interesting finding and that safe space effect that you mentioned. The idea that, hey, if you know you're talking to an ai, you might ask more questions, you may actually be more candid because there's no human involved at all.
It's almost like internet searching, right? It feels a little bit like a secret space where it's just you and a computer discussing, trying to figure something out together. That's the flip side, and I think that's a really exciting finding that you're seeing people actually. Feel more comfortable and more open for certain type of subjects.
I always wondering in terms of a team to support a learner in their learning journey. The GED is such a specific test. It's such a specific milestone, and it's literally getting a certificate that unlocks either college or career. It's a major milestone. It's really important life-changing results. So I would imagine many people come with some level of understanding of that, but probably only some level of understanding, right?
Whether or not you're a factory worker. Looking to retrain or you're 11th grader looking to finish school to high school, like people have limited vision into what their life might be like after a GED or as they sort of move into the next phase of their career or or educational life. I'm curious if that's something that you feel like either an AI or human supporter can really use.
Fodder for motivation to really help people sort of envision themselves on the other side in a different lifestyle, in a different job. Is that something you do already focus on or you hope to in the future?
[00:34:06] CT Turner: Yeah, so a couple things there I would say is we, a lot of learners see this, it's a mixed bag, right?
Uh, several learners say, this is the pathway for me. I start to see some of this, like I'm motivated. There's another subset that see it as a gate. Right. It's like, oh, this hurdle I have to jump over to get to this next thing. And then they don't see beyond just getting, they want the credential and then they'll figure out sort of the next
[00:34:29] Alex Sarlin: thing.
Right? Right.
[00:34:30] CT Turner: So it's really critical to do two things. And so this is why we have national virtual GED Grad Day in May. So it's a virtual graduation. You know, it starts to, it's great for the grads to celebrate, but it's almost more important for people who are on the fence about this. It's really scary to start this journey again after you've been out of school for five years, 10 years, whatever it is, completely.
And so it's really scary. So just to see someone who looks like you or has a story that's even remotely similar to you or in the same location as you. That's really helpful and important for them to say, I can do this, and I see other people like me going through this. Right. And then I think the next thing really is then about this bridging between GED to careers or education to careers, right.
And career paths. And I would say for the most part, that was a, I don't know why, it was shocking to me, but it was shocking early on when I would go out and I would talk with teachers because adult ed's supposed to be tied in with workforce boards. Workforce boards are supposed to be tied in with employers.
And I'm not saying that they're not. But there's very loose coupling between adult education program and a job. Maybe a job directly, but not a career pathway. It's getting better, but what I found is that educators, adult educators, a lot of times, and I think this is true in K 12 too, they don't really know what's happening in the workforce with trends.
What really is in demand. What jobs are going to survive? What jobs are going to thrive, which ones are growing, what's required to get there? And their eyes just aren't even open to what possibilities there are. It's the same thing for our learners. And so it's really important to start exposing them to that at the right time.
'cause again, like I said earlier, we don't wanna blow their mind right in the beginning. But some learners that helps 'em persist. But some learners, it's just too much information, right? So we've made a couple attempts at this and we're getting ready to do one, which is I, I think is the holy grail for us on this one.
It's kind of like that, you know what career is right for me. And so it's a light assessment. It starts to expose you to these different things. It starts to ask you questions about what you want in life, what you wanna earn, do you wanna live in an apartment or you know, those sorts of things. Yeah, you can start building that in so they can start seeing for themselves, what kind of life do I want?
And then how is that tied with what I'm interested in and I have natural tendencies or what am I good at? How does that match up with what's in going on in workforce? Are these jobs going? You know, are they taking off? Are these jobs winding down? What do they pay? Are there other pathways beyond that? So really starting exposing them to that, I think is really important.
And for me. We have the brilliant basics, right? We need to deliver the test. It needs to be fair and accessible. It needs to measure the things that we know and someone needs to go on to. College, goes on to a high career training program. We also need to start making those connections more deliberately.
Careers, and so we're doing some of those. Pilot site career exploration piece is one piece, but then actually providing some of the content or connecting them to these pre-apprenticeship, pre pre-apprenticeship programs is kind of the next big thing I think for us.
[00:37:28] Alex Sarlin: Yeah. The loose coupling does resonates a lot with me because I've always been surprised, and this is less true in in certain other countries, but the US in particular, it sort of has an amalgam of different types of organizations.
Some are educational institutions, some nonprofits, sub testing services, some employer training, you know, organizations of various types. And it's always surprising how loose they're, it's like, if you do this, there's a chance that this will happen, or if you do this. You get a little bit of a leg up in an application process that you have to start all over again.
There's very few things that lock in where it's like, if you finish this, you get the job, or if you finish this, you get an apprenticeship or an internship, or if you finish this apprenticeship, you get a salary bump. And that's actually less true in some other places. Do you think the GED could play a role because it's a credential that does represent a very specific.
Knowledge set, skillset, and an amount of of motivation and work. Do you see a future where sort of A GED has a very direct economic outcome? I'm sure you could. There's an estimated economic outcome that's probably very high, but where it could be like every hour you spend studying for the GED, you're basically making.
$28 because that's the amount you're more likely to pass. And if you do pass, that's the amount you're gonna be making. Is that something you could ever, you know, envision communicating to students? It's like you could go to your current job and make X dollars an hour, or you could spend an hour studying math with the GED.
It's actually worth twice as much.
[00:38:50] CT Turner: Yeah. I don't know if I wanna get in the business of competing with, uh, traditional K 12, but yes. Fair enough. I think what I would say to that. Primarily is building that connection between, again, education and workforce is of just paramount importance, right? Whether you're in K 12, whether you're in post-secondary, et cetera, and there are large employers who have discovered we will not survive well, we can't meet our business outcomes if we don't have workers who can build.
You know, buildings for servers, we don't have people who can do cloud computing roles. It doesn't matter how great cloud computing is and how great it will be for business, if you don't have people that can do those things, it doesn't matter, right? And so K 12 strategy is a great strategy. Starting to introduce this and we're behind other countries.
Absolutely. But let's start in K 12. Let's get that going. But it's a long-term strategy. We have individuals who are ready to go, who can earn their GD credential. They exhibit tons of grit, resilience, and determination. Yep. Right? They're much closer to getting right into the workforce. And so if we can start exposing them to these careers, they get these fundamentals.
One of the things I'm excited about with AI too, is can we start contextualizing learning content? So for instance, we're working on this green energy project in Florida. And so within lesson plans or sample lesson plans. So while you're learning math and science for GED, there are basics of elect electrification that are built into the curriculum.
And so it starts to familiarize with concepts that are gonna be helpful in these career pathways. Um, so those sorts of things. And then can we start contextualizing some of the math, potentially more science items on the test where it's more applied? So those sorts of things I think are really promising.
And then how do we start weaving in these pathway programs into curriculum? Then have a really tight coupling with some type of pre-apprenticeship or learning module that then leads to something. So this green, back to the green energy, or excuse me, energy, it's with the National Association of Energy Professionals.
They have a K 12 strategy. There's an adult strategy and a post-secondary strategy, and so there's curriculum, there is pre-apprenticeship learning, there's mentor layer that comes on. And then there's also some paid pre-apprenticeship at some point in time, and then all of these lead to a guaranteed interview with an employer.
Right? So employers are involved, industry's involved. Education's involved. That's the only way we're going to solve this problem. And so adult education, starting to do these integrated education and training programs locally. And that's right. And that's a good thing to do. The challenge for us, but opportunity for us is we have a national audience,
[00:41:28] Alex Sarlin: right?
And
[00:41:28] CT Turner: so what works in Alabama may not be applicable everywhere. So we're looking for industries that cut across. So energy is one. Healthcare is going to be one, right? Water management, surprisingly, is going to be one because of all the water that's needed for cooling for ai.
[00:41:43] Alex Sarlin: Interesting.
[00:41:44] CT Turner: Yep. And so that's starting to kind of hit the radar, but that's gonna be another important one.
So for us to find those industries, build those connections with industries, then talk with local state government employers, pulling all those folks together, kind of what we need to do next.
[00:42:00] Alex Sarlin: Let's double click on this 'cause I think this is a such an interesting future vision of how the GED might work and what role it might continue to play in this really rapidly changing educational ecosystem.
This contextual testing that you're mentioning where the test is then is sort of adapted to a particular industry or particular region or particular even career goal. When I hear you say, oh, you can have the test where it's not just math, it's the math that you would need to do water management for ai.
You know, it's the math you would need to be able to do healthcare, you know, to become a nursing assistant someday, because you don't have to understand that math. I mean, that actually really changes the nature of the GED sort of when I think of it, and I'm sure many of our listeners. It's almost the definition of a general purpose exam.
It's like it's high school. It's like you take the four subject areas as if you have finished high school. It's so broad, but when you change it to that kind of thing, when you say, Hey, it's a test that actually is preparing for an apprenticeship, it's preparing for a particular type of industry, that's a very different.
Just mental model of what the GED is. It reminds me more of APS or of of entrance exams for particular industries of the firefighter exam or something like that. Right. You know, spell out for us, not that this is the only direction you're going at all, but when AI allows the rapid creation of educational content and allows that type of adaptation.
I mean, I could imagine a world where a learner who doesn't have a high school diploma goes to a particular job description and says, that's my dream job, and it goes great. If you take the GED that's tailored to this industry or to this even description, well that's obviously your first path to getting there because that's the credential that you're gonna need.
That job is not. Accessible to you, period. Until you have this, that makes it such a different type of discussion than oh GED general exam. That's gonna hopefully, you know, raise your outlook across anything. Tell us about what that vision looks like. 'cause that really changes my outlook on just the entire system.
[00:43:58] CT Turner: So first off, I would say your first comment is folks kind of what they think the GD test measures, right? Right. So the first thing I would say is. We have been around since 1942 for a reason.
[00:44:08] Alex Sarlin: Wow.
[00:44:09] CT Turner: And then that reason is because there's a trust that we are gonna focus on the things that are essential for what someone needs and what comes next, right?
So it's not just general K 12 standards that are used and then just just put on the test, sort of ad hoc. We actually hone in on assessment targets. That are related to what's needed in post-secondary and what's needed in work. So we have committees that have looked at this. We have, you know, pulling all that back.
So critic that focus on critical thinking and problem solving skills is prevalent throughout. So for instance, if you go into social studies, you're not just regurgitating, you know, the academic bulimia rather
[00:44:47] Alex Sarlin: than bottoms up, like from what you knew coming out. Very, that makes sense. Yeah. So you're
[00:44:50] CT Turner: gonna get a concept and then you're gonna have to draw inferences from that to be able to answer the question.
You can't memorize something on the GD test and just come and regurgitate it. It's not that type of test anymore. And so that's critical, I think, for today's work life anyway. Right. And then the second thing I would say is, you know, I have lots of thoughts. I don't wanna necessarily talk outta school, but this gets me excited.
Is the contextualized learning. So I think having those core skills is gonna be essential. We can't move away from having the core skills there. And what I do see a lot of is this rise in lots of credential, let's just credential everything. And a lot of 'em aren't evaluated and they aren't designed a particular way.
And so who knows what it really means, what those credentials mean if they're not evaluated, right? And so I think we have to be true to the core of what the GED has always been, and measure those core skills and do it solidly. Then we start to expand out and say, okay, can we start contextualizing math or do we have different.
Types of math. So this math is contextualized to these industries, this math, it's still hitting on the same K, K 12 standards, right? And targets. But it's more contextualized. Or do we go to a path where everyone takes the same math test, maybe it's shorter, and then we have additional modules, right, that are specific to industry, right?
And then. Can we also start taking things that people are doing for work? Start badging them and putting them in. So we create this ecosystem for adult learners. Yes. Where, you know, whatever it is that they're doing, work life skills, formal education, you know, pre-apprenticeship programs, all that stuff gets put in a digital wallet.
That they have access to, that they share with their, I mean like that's where we're going
[00:46:27] Alex Sarlin: and that's where I think the EdTech industry has been going too, uh, which is really exciting. I feel like there's some really interesting, obviously your work with Pearson. Pearson owns Credly. Credly is a system that is entirely designed for that as one of, uh, several systems that are designed for the ability to credential and certify, you know, a variety of different types of skills, a variety of different types of accomplishments and experiences.
And that's an exciting vision as well. I love that and I think that is a really interesting, I mean, you talked about the non-traditional student, how part of what got you interested in the GED or really, really diving into it in the first place was the, the changing of the guard from, you know, non-traditional students.
Meaning they're not 18, you know, years old. They don't want to be on a campus to being like, no, no, that's the norm. Most students are commuting. Most student, the average age is much older than that. People are coming back to school at all ages. It's just a very different educational world. I'm curious what role you see the GED playing.
I'm sure it already plays an enormous role here, but what role you see it playing in the future in really leveling the playing field for learners of totally different ages? You mentioned the 45-year-old re-skill versus the, you know, 17-year-old who is in a traditional high school age, but like the world that you just mentioned, contextualized GED modules that are for particular areas or that are tie into apprenticeships or that tie into particular career pathways.
That's really. Something that's gonna, as the AI revolution happens and we get all these new jobs created, I could see GED playing a role, a really large role in helping train the entire workforce, young and older for these new jobs. Is that part of what your vision is?
[00:48:02] CT Turner: Yeah, I think it needs to be our vision for education, right?
Like, you know, I've spent all my life in education way or another, and I get the fundamentals, liberal arts, all of those things are absolutely fundamental. I, I get all of that. But this whole concept of traditional pathways and traditional education, what's traditional anymore?
[00:48:19] Alex Sarlin: Yeah, exactly. I mean,
[00:48:20] CT Turner: my niche, she's a sophomore this year.
She's spending two hours a day, three days a week at her high school. In the morning she's at a practicum or an internship at, you know. A healthcare system, she's back for an hour or two, and then she's off to the community college campus where she's dual credit. Right,
[00:48:36] Alex Sarlin: exactly.
[00:48:37] CT Turner: Two year degrees, short term degrees, you know, right alongside four years.
You know, there's no traditional anymore, I don't think, and that's just gonna continue to rise. Learning and the flow of work. So you learn something in an employer. One of the most frustrating things for me when I've been looking at all of this is you do all this learning with your employer and then you have a resume.
But how does that employer recognize or validate the skills that you have instead of signaling, you know, what was the name? It's like all these signals, like what college did you go to? What? Employer did you work for? And you're supposed to draw these inferences about this person, but when it comes down to it, you really need to know what skills they've mastered and right, what knowledge that they have and how they can apply that.
And so I'm super excited about those things. I think GED is no different. It's an alternative pathway, but there's no traditional pathway almost anymore, right? It's gonna be people forging their own individual pathways and they're gonna need to be tied into these career pathways. And the rest of their life, right?
And people are gonna need to learn to navigate it, but we need to make sure we're validating all of these things along the way. And so it's not just about putting all these things in place and slapping a high school equivalency on it in the states, it's does the learner have the core skills? And then do they have this next thing?
And then how do we add this next thing on so that the fundamentals are there? What we don't wanna do is. Dumb things down, make things easy, slap a bunch of alternatives, and then in the end, someone might get that job. But when it comes time to train for the next job, or they go to post-secondary for two year or four year degree, they don't have the skills that are necessary.
We've still gotta make sure that we're focused on the fundamentals. We're validating those fundamentals too.
[00:50:10] Alex Sarlin: Well put, we should end there because I think the GED, it been around 80 years, they've been thinking about skills development, alternative pathways, different ways of proving competence, different ways of proving skills, different ways of credentialing for longer than almost anybody.
And I think you're incredibly well positioned to really. As the world really turns on its taxes so that you know what's traditional anymore. As you say that GED testing service has a long, very storied very successful history of being able to say, well, there are different ways of doing it than you've thought of before.
So I'm really excited to see what it does in the future, especially in this age of ai, both AI. Affordances within the GED and AI changing the workforce itself. CT Turner is president of the GED testing service and VP at Pearson's Enterprise Learning and Skills Division, envisioning a skills led future.
Thank you so much for being here with us on EdTech Insiders.
[00:51:02] CT Turner: Thanks for having me on.
Appreciate it.
[00:51:05] Alex Sarlin: Thanks for listening to this episode of EdTech Insiders. If you like the podcast, remember to rate it and share it with others in the EdTech community. For those who want even more, EdTech Insider, subscribe to the Free EdTech Insiders Newsletter on substack.
