Edtech Insiders
Edtech Insiders
Insights on AI Apprenticeships and Future Workforce Trends by Michelle Rhee of EO Ventures
Michelle Rhee is currently a Venture Partner at Equal Opportunity Ventures, investing in companies driving social mobility and impact. Previously, she served as Co-Founder and Chief Strategy Officer of BuildWithin, a workforce learning platform transforming hiring and development, as well as CEO of StudentsFirst, an education advocacy nonprofit that successfully advanced 140+ pieces of new legislation across 18 states. Ms. Rhee was DC’s first Chancellor under Mayoral control of the 50,000-student public school district. She also founded The New Teacher Project to help public school districts and states recruit and train teachers for hard-to-staff schools.
💡 5 Things You’ll Learn in This Episode:
- How alternative pathways and skills-based hiring are reshaping the future of education and work.
- The role of AI in connecting young people to meaningful careers beyond the traditional college route.
- Why potential over credential is becoming a powerful investment thesis for workforce startups.
- The investment opportunities in workforce development and non-college track solutions.
- How education savings accounts (ESAs) and innovative partnerships might transform K-12 education.
✨ Episode Highlights:
[00:02:51] The shift from college-for-all to workforce readiness.
[00:05:42] Why skills-based hiring is the future of work.
[00:07:29] Investment opportunities in alternative education paths.
[00:10:20] Using AI to connect young people to careers.
[00:12:10] Stepful's success in accelerated healthcare training.
[00:15:43] The impact of new education policies on K-12.
[00:19:37] AI and ESAs as tools to future-proof education.
[00:20:38] Michelle Rhee's career advice for the next generation.
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🎉 Presenting Sponsor:
This season of Edtech Insiders is once again brought to you by Tuck Advisors, the M&A firm for EdTech companies. Run by serial entrepreneurs with over 25 years of experience founding, investing in, and selling companies, Tuck believes you deserve M&A advisors who work as hard as you do.
[00:00:00] Michelle Rhee: I think employers are already overwhelmed. They don't see that kind of work as sort of first order business. It also doesn't necessarily fall into like the K 12 realm or even higher ed, right? And so for me, what I think is interesting is like This might be the place where startups and venture can come in because there's a vacuum and a need for this and really start to define both the requirements as well as what are the right pathways and training programs in.
[00:00:33] Alex Sarlin: Welcome to edtech insiders, the top podcast covering the education technology industry, funding rounds to impact AI developments across early childhood, K 12, higher ed and work, you'll find it at edtechinsiders. com. All here at EdTech Insiders, remember
[00:00:50] Ben Kornell: to subscribe to the pod, check out our newsletter and also our event calendar.
And to go deeper, check out EdTech Insiders Plus, where you can get premium content, access to our WhatsApp channel, early access to events, and back channel insights from Alex and Ben. Hope you enjoyed today's pod. Michelle
Rhee is currently a venture partner at Equal Opportunity Ventures, investing in companies, driving social mobility and impact. Previously, she served as co founder and chief strategy officer of Build Within, a workforce learning platform transforming hiring and development, as well as CEO of Students First, an education advocacy non profit that successfully advanced 140 pieces of new legislation across 18 states.
Miss Rhee was DC's first chancellor under mayoral control of the 50, 000 student public school district. She also founded the new teacher project to help public school districts and states recruit and train teachers for Harvard Staff School. Coming up, our interview with Michelle Rhee. Hello EdTech insiders.
We are super excited and honored to have Michelle Rhee here as our guest. Michelle, we read in the background, has had an incredible Education career, and she's now a partner at EO Ventures, Equal Opportunity Ventures. And we're so thrilled to have you on the show today.
[00:02:18] Michelle Rhee: Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
[00:02:20] Ben Kornell: So across your career, you've always dialed in on opportunities for those who are furthest from opportunity and how education can kind of unlock those pathways. And for many, many years. It was kind of four year college or bust in the entire kind of ed reform ecosystem, but now you're working towards non college track options and alternative options.
Can you talk to us a little bit about that shift of thinking or was it even a shift for you?
[00:02:51] Michelle Rhee: Yeah, it's interesting because I've been in this workforce world for a while now, and one of the things that I realized is that when I was in education, this was sort of back in the heyday of education reform, where the mantra was very much like college for all, right?
And that was never the you know, Viewpoint that I took. And so when I was chancellor of the Washington DC public school district, one of the things that I would often say was that I wanted kids to graduate from our system with options, right? They had the option to attend a four year college. That's what they chose to do.
And they were prepared to do so, or they had the option to go straight into a career that could lead to a thriving wage, the problem with that though, and this is, you know, hindsight is 2020 was that. I sort of feel like the part about going straight into the workforce was more lip service than anything else because on the college front, right, we had a clear set of metrics that we could drive towards.
We knew if the kids did, got an ACT score of this, that they would be more likely and all those sorts of things. So that path was relatively clear. And I don't think that there was any clarity on the straight to career path. I still don't think there is. And The landscape has shifted. More and more young people are saying they don't think that college is for them.
And the world is changing in terms of, as they're looking up and looking at the possibilities, they see a whole lot of things that aren't necessarily aligned to going into debt and being somewhere for four years. And just the notion that like, you're going to go to college for four years and learn, learn, learn, and then you're going to go off and do, I just don't think resonates with young people.
So, I'm incredibly curious in this space. I think there needs to be a lot of work and structure set up. I don't think that there is enough information out there either for kids, their families, or for the school districts that are counseling them right now. So it's a real place of both need and opportunity, in my opinion.
[00:04:58] Alex Sarlin: One of the movements that people have been trying to do in this sort of post college for all environment, as you mentioned, is either reduce degree requirements in certain kinds of jobs, the federal government has done that, a number of large tech companies have done that, Or embrace the concept at least of skills based hiring where that signal, that metric that you're mentioning that's been absent for so long, where hopefully there's a little bit more of a clear pathway where these are the skills that will get you the job.
So even if you're not going to a four or two year college, if you get those skills through some, through some means you can go. I'm curious how you see either of those adaptations. Do you think they're positive? Do you think they haven't gone far enough or are they misguided?
[00:05:42] Michelle Rhee: I think that they make a whole lot of sense, right?
Before I came to EO, I co founded a tech startup called Build Within, which was working in the apprenticeship space. And our motto for the company was potential over credential, right? This idea that you really needed to look at the transferable skills and knowledge that people had and their ability to be able to learn something way more than you.
Do they have a degree or that sort of thing? So I think the notion is right, but I also worry because I don't think that there are the structures in place right now to specifically identify, hey, in order for somebody to come into this role and be successful, here are the skills and knowledge that you need to have, and then here's what you can develop over the first couple of years, right?
Because you'd need that in order to backward map and figure out, all right, how are we going to prepare kids, right? And the question is like, how's that going to happen? I think employers are already overwhelmed. They don't see that kind of work as sort of first order business. It also doesn't necessarily fall into like the K 12 realm or even higher ed, right?
And so for me, what I think is interesting is like, This might be the place where startups and venture can come in because there's a vacuum and a need for this and really start to define both the requirements as well as what are the right pathways and training programs.
[00:07:11] Ben Kornell: So as you've moved into this investor space, how are you thinking about the investment opportunity?
In alternative pathways. And when we're talking about the R. O. I. Of higher ed. How do you think about the R. O. I. From an investor standpoint in this space?
[00:07:29] Michelle Rhee: So from the investment angle, I would say, I think there's tremendous opportunity. This is the place where we need to innovate, where we need to be really current, right?
Because I think the old school and I put myself into the old school category because I am old now. I think the old school way of sort of thinking about this was like, all right, let's look at the data on what industries and are going to be hiring in the next. 10 years and what the particular roles are.
And then let's go talk kids into realizing that these are great fits for them based on like these antiquated personality assessments and that sort of thing. Right. And I just, I just don't think that's going to work. Moving forward. I think that what young people are looking for, how they think about what they, how they want us to be spending their time, how they think about work generally is just very different from what it used to be.
And I think that the solutions have to really. Take into consideration how, like generational shifts in the thinking around this stuff are going to impact their effectiveness, right? And their ability to really engage young people. You know, one of the things about our firm, because you asked about impact, Ben.
A lot of folks assume that Equal Opportunity Ventures, both because of our name and our thesis, is like an impact investor. We actually don't consider ourselves impact investors. There's a sort of slight tweak to what we believe, which is that we believe that if companies and founders are tackling some of society's biggest issues, the issues that people have long thought to be intractable, Right.
And they're doing that with the right kinds of products that they're going to be wildly successful. So we don't sort of see like, Oh, you, you sacrifice some of the financial gains for impact. We just think, no, if you're solving the right problems and you're doing it with the right solution, you're going to see massive financial returns and it'll make an impact as well.
[00:09:34] Alex Sarlin: I love the point you're making about the sort of old school way to think about pathways, and I'm guilty of that myself, of looking at all those Bureau of Labor Statistics charts about the growth industries, and it's always home health care aides and all these, these particular jobs, and then thinking, oh, now we have to convince students that this is their dream job, even though the statistics say that most of them want to be.
Social media influencers literally is the number one job. I'm curious if you see in this sort of new way of looking at things, not, not working backwards from, uh, from stats, do you think that there's the capability of using AI or using data in different ways to sort of combine what students and young people want out of their career with what, where the jobs are going?
[00:10:20] Michelle Rhee: Yes, I think there has to be, but I think we have to be willing to, to meet young people where they are, right? So, for example, first of all, I, I see a lot of momentum in this, in this space, which I, I love, right? And I think it speaks to the fact that there is demand for it. But as an example, the vast majority of platforms that I see, they have some kind of assessment.
Right? So they're trying to assess what the kids like and what they're interested in. And then the idea is then you map those to particular careers or industries. But if you look at the assessments, right, they're, they're sort of built on like, psychometrically sound assessments, etc. But I was reading one the other day, it was like, what do you like to do on the weekend?
And it was like, go to a museum, all right, volunteer at your neighborhood, whatever. And I was like, No teenager that I know spends their weekend doing any of those things, right? And so I wonder if we're like turning young people off like just from jump by saying this is the tool through which we're going to provide some guidance to you.
And so that's why I really think like we have to hone in on. The mindset that kids have today, what motivates them, what engages them, how they're engaged. And I, so to your question, I definitely think that there is a way to leverage AI in this, to like make those connections for kids.
[00:11:49] Ben Kornell: Are there particular companies or strategies that you're seeing traction in?
Like, what are the bright spots that you're saying, okay, this is really proving things out. And then also, are there, Parts of this movement that you think are destined to fail, either from an impact standpoint or a financial standpoint.
[00:12:10] Michelle Rhee: So good questions. In terms of what we think are bright spots, I'd say one of our portfolio companies is a company called Stepful, and I think they have really hit on something because, you know, if you think just back a few years, there was this notion of, Like the tech boot camps, right?
We need all this tech talent. We can't find enough of it. Let's train underserved populations in tech skills. And then they can all go and work at Google and Apple, et cetera. And so there was this like sort of heyday of the boot camps. But in reality, very few of those. Folks could actually go and get the jobs that they thought they were going to get.
And so there was this real disconnect, right? And I've seen that happen in other places as well. And what Stepful has managed to do is find an industry and particular. Positions, right? So they're a company they started with phlebotomists, like let's train phlebotomists. So they took what used to be a typically like a two year associates degree curriculum.
They've condensed it down into four months. The vast majority of it is being delivered asynchronously and virtually, which means that people can have their day jobs, then come home at night, log in and sort of learn what they need. But it's like a very contained amount of knowledge. And then most importantly, like once they complete this, like the jobs are there.
And these are like. Meaningfully higher paying jobs for them because most of the people that participate are sort of moving from service industry where we're making minimum wage or slightly more into like meaningfully better paying jobs and the hospitals, clinics, you know, you name it out there like can't sign these contracts fast enough.
They're like, yes, send us more, send us more. So that's a place where I feel like yeah. A lot of dots were connected in a way that made sense for the participants and their Satisfaction rates with with the step fold process and program are extraordinarily high as well So I think that's an example And at eo we're trying to figure out like what are the other sectors or the other job classifications?
where we could see that kind of Momentum as well. So I think there definitely are bright spots, you know, in terms of where I don't see there's, I mean, I never want to say that something can't succeed. I'm generally not particularly interested in companies or tools that are trying to like teacher proof.
Educate, like, oh, let's make something so that it doesn't matter who's in front of the kid. Like, they're going to be able to, like, that doesn't really resonate with me because I just don't think that's how education works. I don't think that's how kids work. On the other side of the spectrum, I also don't think that tools that are too complicated to like, like, let's get people to understand the philosophy and the underpinnings of how the human brain works in this way.
I think that's. Just so far away from where most educators are, but where I think I have, we have a lot of interest and there are increasing numbers of, of solutions is like knowing where most educators are today, which is frustrated, overwhelmed, feeling overworked, etc. Can we develop products for them that.
Can ease their burdens, make their lives better, but actually still provide really high quality, either services or data or information. I think that space is super interesting.
[00:15:43] Alex Sarlin: We have to ask we're coming into this conversation, you know, less than a month after a major change election. And you're somebody who has.
Been up close to the sort of intersection of politics and education for many years, seeing it from lots of different angles for our listeners who are maybe ed tech entrepreneurs. They may be educators. What trends do you see coming under this new administration or just in light of all of the different, the post.
No Child Left Behind era, the post, I won't say end, but you know, charters, like, you know, there's all been all these political waves, and we're coming into what feels like maybe a new era that nobody knows what to expect. What would you recommend people look for in terms of trying to suss out where education policy at the federal or state level might be going?
[00:16:31] Michelle Rhee: Yeah. I mean, this is a question that is top of mind, right? I think educators are very much in a space right now where they don't know what to expect, right? It does, is the new administration, is this going to mean that we're going to have to worry about books being banned or title dollars disappearing?
So I think there's a lot of worry and consternation. What I would say though, is that I think Yeah. During Trump's first administration, education reformers essentially put a pause on things, right? In many cases, rightfully so. They were concerned about things that they believed were more pressing, but we're in a wildly different environment now.
I mean, if you look at. All of the data around the academic slide that took place during the pandemic, not just academics, but things like chronic absenteeism that were massively impacted, teacher sentiment, the fact that fewer kids think that college is the option for that. I think we are dealing with a wildly different landscape now.
[00:17:33] Ben Kornell: In some ways, there's a lot that we can all agree on at this point in terms of that landscape. Yeah.
[00:17:38] Michelle Rhee: Absolutely. And so I don't think we can afford to say, look, well, we're going to pause during the Trump second administration either. I think we've got to figure out how do we approach this reality that we're facing and try to lean into the things that we do know.
There's a lot that we're not going to know probably for some time, but there are some things that we, we do know, and we can take advantage of to move things forward. I'd say those things are there. AI, you know, Ben, to your point and, and your recent post on this, which I thought was amazing. That is, you know, I think we can reliably believe that we can make some progress there because Trump just appointed a new AI czar, right?
Who was a venture capitalist. He's got Elon Musk advising him. And what I think that allows for is the fact that with AI sort of coming more into the equation, a lot of school districts. We're like, okay, we don't, this doesn't feel, it feels a little, a little uncertain to us. Right. And I even heard about some school districts who are banning all things AI.
Right. And I don't think that's the right move. And I think that the extent to which we know the administration is going to support efforts in the realm of AI, I think we should lean into that. I think we all know, for example, that ESAs will probably, education savings accounts will probably grow in the second Trump administration.
And I don't think that we need to think about ESAs. In the old school way of like, oh, it just means charters and private schools and voucher, that sort of thing. I think that there are ways that we could think about how could a traditional school district partner or leverage those dollars in, in innovative ways.
So I think we've got to pick those spots that we know this is an area that might make sense for kids. We know that the administration is going to be supportive of it. So let's be creative in those areas.
[00:19:37] Ben Kornell: Yeah, it's so interesting that we might actually have another moment here where there's such common ground around innovation and then also these new pathways where there's kind of political unanimity around economic opportunity is further and further away from people and education could be a lever.
I guess the last thing I'd wonder about is you've been a leader in non profit, you've been a leader in government. You've been a leader in a for profit startup. Now you've been a leader as an investor and in each phase. There's been a way in which you've reinvented your career, but also there's a through line, which is really around unlocking impact for others, and especially those for this from opportunity.
What career advice or lessons learned or insights would you kind of. Transmit on to the younger generation who wants to emulate many of the, both the impact, but also the dynamism of your career. What advice would you give them?
[00:20:38] Michelle Rhee: So one of the things that I tell young people all the time is that from one stage of life, And career to another, I have never known what I was going to do next.
Right. So sometimes I'll go to a college and, you know, speak at a class and they're like, well, I want to be as new for urban superintendent too. So what, what should my steps, you know, how should I order my steps? And I always tell people, like when I was in college, I had no idea what I wanted to do afterwards.
Like I sort of fell into teach for America. Right? And then after TFA, I was like, uh, I don't know what I should do. And, you know, so the new teacher project and then DC public schools after that, all the way through to EO, I never planned any of those transitions. So I think my advice would be like, Don't overthink it, sometimes you have to just live life and wait and see what opportunities present themselves, what resonates with you, and sort of where your, where your passions take you.
So that would be, that would be my general career advice for young people. Sometimes I see folks just like tying themselves up in knots, trying to plan every step out, and I don't think that's necessary.
[00:21:53] Ben Kornell: Well, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us today. Michelle Reed, partner at EO Ventures and also an icon and legend in education, impact and reform.
Thank you for joining us.
[00:22:05] Michelle Rhee: Thank you. It's a pleasure being here.
[00:22:08] Alex Sarlin: Thanks for listening to this episode of ed tech insiders. If you liked the podcast, remember to rate it and share it with others in the ed tech community. For those who want even more ed tech insider, subscribe to the free ed tech insiders newsletter on Substack.
