Edtech Insiders
Edtech Insiders
Year-End Special Part 2: 2024 Reflections and 2025 Predictions by EdTech Industry Leaders
2024 was a remarkable year for EdTech, with advancements that redefined teaching, learning, and the role of technology in education. But what’s next?
In Part 2 of our year-end special, Alex and Ben invite a panel of visionary leaders from across the EdTech ecosystem to share their reflections on 2024 and predictions for 2025.
🎙️ Featuring insights from:
- Jomayra Herrera, Partner at Reach Capital
- Amit Patel, Managing Director at Owl Ventures
- Ben Wallerstein, CEO & Co-Founder at Whiteboard Advisors
- John Higginson, Chief Technology Officer at Curriculum Associates
- Karl Rectanus, Chairperson, Industry Council at EDSAFE AI Alliance
- Andrew Goldman, EVP at HMH Labs
From the transformative power of AI to global innovation, workforce readiness, and the evolving funding landscape, these thought leaders bring invaluable perspectives to the table.
✨ Episode Highlights:
[00:02:23] 🤖 Jomayra on AI’s evolution: from experimentation to proven outcomes.
[00:07:00] 🌍 Amit explores global EdTech opportunities and demographic shifts.
[00:13:43] 📉 Ben Wallerstein on the impact of ESSER funding expiration in 2025.
[00:44:06] 📱 John highlights mobile learning’s dual role and voice AI advances.
[01:01:50] 🌎 Karl's bold predictions: leapfrogging global innovation in EdTech.
[01:03:08] ✍️ Andrew explains how generative AI meets high-quality content.
🎧 Want to hear Alex and Ben's reflections and predictions? Listen to Part 1 here: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1877869/episodes/16321195
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🎉 Presenting Sponsor:
This season of Edtech Insiders is once again brought to you by Tuck Advisors, the M&A firm for EdTech companies. Run by serial entrepreneurs with over 25 years of experience founding, investing in, and selling companies, Tuck believes you deserve M&A advisors who work as hard as you do.
[00:00:00] Amit Patel: I think there are certain shifts that are happening, especially from like kind of a demographic perspective, population perspective globally, which are just starting to force folks to like really deal with, Okay, well, what are we going to actually do about this? And how are we going to create innovation out of this?
Or are causing individuals to think about where am I going to go into the world to actually think about Where am I going to work or how am I going to get the education that I actually want to have? Or what am I thinking about outside of maybe even just my home country?
[00:00:40] Alex Sarlin: Welcome to ed tech insiders the top podcast covering the education technology industry From funding rounds to impact to ai developments across early childhood k12 higher ed and work You'll find it all here at edtech Remember
[00:00:57] Ben Kornell: to subscribe to the pod, check out our newsletter, and also our event calendar.
And to go deeper, check out EdTech Insiders Plus, where you can get premium content, access to our WhatsApp channel, early access to events, and back channel insights from Alex and Ben. Hope you enjoyed today's pod.
[00:01:19] Alex Sarlin: Hey everyone, welcome back to EdTech Insiders. In part one of our year end special, Ben and I took a look back at 2024, what worked, what didn't, and shared our predictions for what's coming in 2025. But now it's time to bring in the experts. We've invited some of the most inspiring voices in edtech to join us for part two, and I can't wait for you to hear from them.
Today, we're joined by Jamyra Herrera from Reach Capital, Amit Patel from Owl Ventures, Ben Wallerstein from Whiteboard Advisors. John Higginson from Curriculum Associates, Carl Rectanus, a longtime education entrepreneur, and Andrew Goldman from HMH Labs. They'll share their take on what shaped 2024 and their bold predictions for where edtech is headed next.
From the role of AI to trends in funding and innovation, this conversation is packed with incredible insights. So let's dive in and hear what's on the horizon from some of the best minds in the business.
[00:02:23] Ben Kornell: Hi, everyone. So we are excited to add to our predictions with Jamyra Herrera, longtime friend of EdTech Insiders, amazing human being, but also partner at Reach Capital, Jamyra.
We'd love to hear how you're thinking about the future of education.
[00:02:41] Jomayra Herrera: Thank you for having me as always. This is my favorite group of people to join. So I'm always careful about predictions because I feel like they're almost always wrong. And so I'll talk a little bit about 2024. I feel like for most people, 2024 was about.
AI and integrating AI into education, a whole flurry of amazing new tools and technologies and a lot of experimentation happening in schools and out of schools, which was incredible and exciting. And also a lot of capital went into AI and learning oriented companies. I think 2025 is going to be a focus on really two things or expect two big trends to happen.
One is actually figuring out what works, or at least getting closer to figuring out what works. I think there was a lot of experimentation in 24. I think there was a lot of progress in technology that happened in 24. But the data on efficacy and actually moving outcomes, I think, is still super early and I think it's something that you all have talked about in your newsletter and your podcast in the past and have had many guests that refer to it.
And so my hope is that for 2024, we start getting a lot closer to figuring out. What is working, what is not and start seeing those technologies that are working, hopefully actually getting a step ahead. I think the other factor that is not AI driven at all, but actually more of a, let's call it consumer shift is and also policy shift.
In some ways, we're going to see a lot more movement towards school choice. And so seeing a lot more families taking advantage of education savings accounts or vouchers or whatever it might be new school choice policies and finding the school and learning opportunities that work best for their family.
And. So I think it is going to be both consumer driven in terms of desire for new opportunities, but also accelerated by all of the school choice policies that we're seeing happening across the country. And obviously the new administration feels very aligned with that as well. So that's what I expect in 2025.
[00:04:45] Ben Kornell: So Jamyra, from a REACH standpoint, you have a double down and reframe of the thesis, which includes human flourishing and expands into healthcare. You're already pretty involved in mental health investments, and then there's also thriving at work and upskilling and growing. In particular, in those spaces, what are you looking for in 2025?
[00:05:09] Jomayra Herrera: Yeah, so within healthcare, fundamentally, we're looking for technologies and solutions that help to increase the access to healthcare and increase the quality to healthcare. And that can look and feel like a lot of different types of solutions. But three big areas that we emphasize we're really excited about within the healthcare and workforce intersection are We're looking for specialty specific solutions that actually help to elevate the clinician and their flow of work.
So you can think about clinical workflow technologies focused on women's health specialist or focus on oncologist or endocrinologist or whatever might be so that they're actually able to get the support exactly when they need it. And that might be in helping with clinical decision support and helping with charting, et cetera.
We're also looking for modern point of reference or care tools. So there's a commonly used technology in most healthcare settings called up to date. It's very, very much an incumbent tool and
[00:06:11] Ben Kornell: not very up to date. No, it's not
[00:06:13] Jomayra Herrera: very up to date. It's actually quite outdated. And so we're looking for a modern version of that.
And then the last thing I talk about is looking for the new workforce management tool for healthcare. Healthcare is incredibly complex and a lot of the tools that they use are. You can imagine the large incumbents workday. People saw Oracle. They're not really adapted to how health care has changed so dramatically and just like the last five years.
And so we're looking for those types of tools and then within workforce, we're spending a lot of time going much deeper into specific verticals. So you might have seen our announced. Our investment in Lab LaBie, which is specifically focusing on the telecom industry and trying to start with simulation based training and then get much deeper into the industry themselves.
And so we see a lot more opportunity for that.
[00:07:00] Alex Sarlin: Yeah. We also covered the step full round that was just announced, which I know is at an interesting overlap between workforce development and healthcare that REACH has been involved with quite a while. Maybe you could talk about that round and also a little bit more about.
The workforce development thesis. And do you feel like that type of simulation based deeper training, especially in specific verticals is going to pick up next year in collaboration with advanced technologies? I know you mentioned 2024 is the year of AI, 2025, there may be immersive technologies coming out.
There may be other ways. I'd love to hear you talk about workforce training.
[00:07:33] Jomayra Herrera: Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start with the step full round, which is we are very excited about their series B round led by Oak, which I couldn't think of a better healthcare really driven investor from day one. And, and so we're, you know, this is off the back of a few amazing years of just progress, exponential growth for the company.
And so it's a great time for them. We're very excited. And then on the workforce development thesis, like you mentioned, simulation based training and simulation based upskilling, I think is going to be a really big focus for next year. And that's really across multiple verticals. We know that the best way to learn is by actually doing, and actually not just reading about it.
And so we finally have technology in a place that can help to enable that. And so this year we actually made an investment, a company called take two, which it's focusing more on the talent acquisition side, but simulating what that experience is going to be when you get on the job, whether you're a patient coordinator or whether you might be a field sales person so that the hiring coordinator can get a better sense of what you can do.
But also as part of the job, you know, it's a two way thing. You can get a better sense of what you're about to sign up for. And so take two is focusing on the talent acquisition side, but we're seeing it all across the board. We're also investors in a company called, they're not called Tenor. They were formerly called SpeakSage, but very similar idea of simulation based deliberate practice opportunities for managers.
And so it's just an incredible opportunity to actually practice having hard conversations, payroll conversations, firing someone, things that Previously, people were walking in cold to do and messing up quite a bit, but now there's actual opportunities to simulate that experience.
[00:09:17] Ben Kornell: I think it's kind of ironic that some of your themes for 2025 have actually been long standing, known.
Challenges, but finally the technology is meeting the moment. This idea of like learning through doing has been around since, you know, Egyptian times it's like, and yet to do that at scale has been out of reach. And now, now we are, I also just would say reach this portfolio. When we look at the numbers for 2024.
You were one of the most active investors in the space, primarily in seed and a, but it was really interesting to see how, you know, from a market standpoint, the venture capital, especially in ed tech, seemed to really dry up and yet you all were incredibly active. Do you project that optimism and that number of deals coming forward in 2025, or are you going to be more in the double down and kind of concentrate that?
In 2025 or a little both.
[00:10:18] Jomayra Herrera: It's a little bit of both, right? We're very much eager to double down, especially on some companies that we know are taking off, but I don't see the amount of amazing companies and opportunities and incredible talented founders decreasing next year. And ultimately our job is to bet on.
Incredible founders with a big vision operating in a big market and taking advantage of huge technological tailwinds, like you mentioned. And so I don't see that going anywhere next year. And so I suspect that our pace and activity will be similar. And I'm really excited for that because I think for a long time, you know, we were.
Investing and I'm talking about venture capital as an asset class, we were investing particularly a lot in 2020 and 2021 when deals were just increasing, but there wasn't a big tech shift, right? And so now a lot of, a lot of funds are facing that struggle from all of the capital they deployed, but this is an incredible opportunity that doesn't come very often.
And so I don't suspect that our pace will, will decrease. And I just want to highlight Ben, like you said, at tech activity dried up. We stayed consistent, and I think we will always stay consistent because where we started as a fund was an education and that that passion and that commitment is not going anywhere.
[00:11:35] Alex Sarlin: Yeah. Final quick, quick, quick question. So I think in the beginning of 2024, we said, you know, every pitch deck is going to have to have a slide about AI in it this year. And I think that mostly was true. What do you think is true for the next year? Is it going to be about skills? What is something that's sort of going to be?
I must see for investors to know that entrepreneurs are really on top of where the ball is
[00:11:59] Jomayra Herrera: outcomes. I want to see outcomes. I want to see ROI. I want to see, I don't want to see a slapping of AI. I actually want to see like, Hey, we use this even if it's a small pilot or beta, but we were able to move the needle in these ways.
That is what I'm craving. And that's what I'm hoping to see.
[00:12:17] Ben Kornell: Well, that's a great way to end it. Thank you so much. Jamira Herrera. Partner at reach capital ed tech leader, extraordinary, and now really changing the game when it comes to healthcare workforce, human flourishing. And if people want to find out more, where can they go to Myra?
[00:12:33] Jomayra Herrera: You can go to reach capital. com. You can also email me. It's just my first name. Jamira I've reached capital. com. I try to read every email that comes through. And so, yeah.
[00:12:43] Ben Kornell: And not over the next two weeks when you're on break. So let's make that a resolution, but thank you so much for joining the pod. Thank you.
[00:12:50] Jomayra Herrera: Thanks for having me.
[00:12:51] Ben Kornell: All right, everyone. We're here with Amit Patel, Managing Director at Owl Ventures, a great friend of the pod, long time, long time, supporter of our edtech space, and also a great prognosticator of trends to come. So we're very excited to look at your crystal ball today. Welcome to the pod.
[00:13:10] Amit Patel: Thank you, Ben and Alex, for having me. I've been a huge fan of the pod for quite some time now, and I don't know about the great, Prognosticator, but you know, we'll see what kind of discussion we can have today.
[00:13:20] Ben Kornell: So don't worry a year from now, we're going to look back at this one. We're all about performance assessment.
So I love it. I love it. You know, as you look back at 2024 and look ahead, you know, what are the trends that kind of define 2024 for you? And then which of those do you expect to accelerate or expand in 2024?
[00:13:43] Amit Patel: Yeah, so I think as we've all discussed multiple times over the course of this year, obviously, you know, one trend in 2024 that you cannot go without talking about is obviously the AI EdTech trend, right?
Surprise, shock. Surprise, shock, yes. I will say, I think related to that though, The way that A. I. Is actually going to be leveraged in 2025, I think, is going to be fascinating and very, very interesting. And so a couple of things that I think are actually now possible, and we're starting to see hints of this, and I think are going to gain momentum as we think about 2025.
Is first of all, this idea of taking a much more whole child approach to education, as well as just having more of a comprehensive consideration of what a personalized learning plan could actually look like for that student. And the reason why. That is actually possible now versus before was the fact that it was really difficult to marry all of these different types of data sources together again, not to say that that's going to be perfectly solved in 2025 or anything like that.
But if you are able to start to get these different streams of data together and you want to start to analyze this and you want to start to actually ask intelligent questions. First of all, that's actually possible to do in a practical amount of time. You're not talking about spending hours and hours, if not weeks and weeks of analysis to actually arrive at some type of conclusion is point number one.
And then the second point that I would actually make is. Well, the so what? So what do you do with this? And this idea of, okay, now I understand what's happening with the student and how can I offer some type of personalized learning for that student? And again, pre all of this AI kind of innovation that we've actually seen, individuals were basically force fit on what was a predefined learning path that actually existed, rather than saying, Hey, I'm creating a truly individualized learning plan for you.
Based on what is actually happening in the real time right now. And so I think you put these two kind of innovations together. And again, we are starting to see some companies start to do this and you can have a really, really, I would say powerful impact on what is actually possible to create for students, for educators, for schools as well.
So that's, that's one trend that I am. I am super excited about, I would say a second trend, which I think is somewhat related. I think the ownership that schools can actually have on their own curriculum and data, again, I think the fact now that you do have the ability to ask these types of questions, you do have the ability to conduct this type of analysis without having a data science team of like a dozen people or something like that, you do have the ability to start to say, Hey.
I want to, you know, kind of look at this in real time. I want to do this with the curriculum or I want to mix and match and things like that. I think that is something that is going to embolden, empower, and, and we're going to kind of continue to see more and more districts kind of start to take ownership of that because it's practical to actually do that now.
So I would say that's a second component of what I think is something that you're going to kind of continue to see that trend increase in 2025. And then the third one, I would probably say is, I think there are certain shifts that are happening, especially from like kind of a demographic perspective, population perspective globally, which are just starting to force.
Folks to like really deal with, okay, well, what are we going to actually do about this and how are we going to create innovation out of this or are causing individuals to think about where am I going to go into the world to actually think about where am I going to work or how am I going to get the education that I actually want to have, or what am I thinking about outside of maybe even just my home country?
And so I think we are starting to see like kind of several trends that are happening and innovations that are getting introduced. That are really saying, Hey, these shifts are something that are no longer something that we can just ignore. And it's something that we actually have to start to get and create real solutions to.
And so an example of that would be, you know, as you think about, you know, kind of the number of students that are actually going to be. You know, of college age in the continent of Africa, for example, over the coming decades. And you think about, you know, kind of the physical university infrastructure that exists over there.
And there's a mismatch, right? Like there is that actual traditional way of serving that student demographic is not going to be possible. And so what I would say is like, similar to like kind of how you saw new innovations come out and leapfrogging start to happen. In other industries, such as, you know, mobile phones and things like that, I do think that there's going to be interesting innovations that start to emerge from other parts of the world outside of the U S that are going to meet the need that is just a reality in places like that.
And so this, what I would describe as internationalization of ed tech and innovation that is happening. I think you're going to kind of continue to see accelerate because of again, certain demographic trends that are happening around the world that are going to cause this type of innovation and migration just to kind of continue
[00:19:15] Alex Sarlin: to happen.
Yeah, that's a fantastic overview. As you're naming these three segments, I'm sort of doing a little bit of mental matching to some of the companies in the owl portfolio that you've been sort of doubling down on and really thinking about this year. I think about. You know, the holistic piece, you have things like robot or, you know, mental health platform, the answers now for helping autistic students, a number of different mental health type platforms, hazel health.
You also have from the global perspective, things like you lesson in Africa and you bits in South America and via in Europe, you know, you really have been thinking about a very holistic global strategy. Welcome tech for immigrant populations. There's really a lot of interesting plays that owl has been doing, thinking very globally this year.
And then the one I really want to ask you about is the data piece for AI, because we talk about AI all the time in this podcast, as you know, but one piece of it that I think goes under noticed, I think sometimes, but you guys have been on top of it is how do you actually get that data to flow to enable the type of.
Personalized learning vision that we all want to see you have Authentica solutions among other investments in this space. But I'd love to hear you talk generally about the data piece of this. You mentioned that, you know, people will need the data. They'll also be using the data to make their own curricular solutions.
What does this look like? What, you know, if you zoom forward a year from now, How is data being used in new ways?
[00:20:35] Amit Patel: Yeah, so I think appreciate you bringing up Authentica because Russell and Jean from Authentica are folks that, you know, kind of I've known for a long time now, and I was really excited when we decided to partner with them on this because Alex, to your point, if you don't have this data that is accessible or sitting in some type of data warehouse or data lake, You can't actually take advantage of the AI technology to actually do anything with it.
And so the innovation that kind of somebody like Authentica is bringing to not only make this accessible to K 12 institutions, but also higher ed institutions again, is then. Empowering schools, districts, universities to say, Hey, okay, we now have this data in some format where whether it's a teacher that wants to ask a question against it, whether it's a principal, whether it's a superintendent, it is now accessible in a way that allows us to conduct that type of analysis that we've always hoped that we were willing to conduct, but we frankly could not.
I also think you're starting to see other players and again within our portfolio. And what they're doing in terms of starting to say, Hey, let's take all of these open educational resources out there and let's make it accessible. Let's make it possible to actually run analytics on this. Let's make it possible to actually understand, you know, kind of how is this curriculum actually working within our classrooms and then you have folks like panorama education, right?
Which are saying, Hey. Let's start to look at student, parent, teacher, administrator, survey data. Let's start to marry that data with MTSS data. Let's start to marry that data with more traditional ways that we start to think about, you know, whether it's absence or assessment or behavior data. And so again, you're getting this like kind of comprehensive picture of what's actually happening.
And multiple sources of how that's all kind of starting to come together. And then you layer on top of that, this capability to start to ask questions in a very intuitive and accessible way. And, man, that can be pretty powerful.
[00:22:31] Ben Kornell: Really can. Just hearing everything you're saying, uh, makes me incredibly excited for 2025.
I'm curious about the funding landscape. More broadly than just owl, like overall venture capital has seen a pretty big pullback, not just in ed tech, but basically all venture capital has had a pullback over the last two years. And then particularly in ed tech, it's been down even, you know, pre like 2017 levels now with these tailwinds of new technology intersecting with these kind of age old challenges or leap forward opportunities.
Do you think that. The, uh, market is going to open up. And what advice would you have for entrepreneurs who are thinking about raising around in 2025? What do you think that funding landscape is going to require?
[00:23:19] Amit Patel: Yeah. So a great question, Ben. And I, what I would say is. You know, do I think that we're going to go back to the euphoric, you know, kind of 21, uh, time period that we had?
Like, I don't think that's where the market is kind of headed to specifically not in 2025, uh, as well. I do think like what you are going to kind of continue to see. Is this focused on what I would describe as like high quality businesses. Right. And so if you are, let's say a growth stage business, uh, there is this understanding that look, you know, what are the fundamentals beyond just the revenue growth?
Like, what does that actually look like as a business? How are you thinking about long term sustainability, you know, as you think about unit economics, as you think about, you know, again, at the appropriate stage, whether you're a rule of 40 company rule of 50 rule of 60, like, you know, between the private side, as well as the public side, you're kind of continuing to see investors place premiums on companies that actually prioritize those types of fundamentals.
So I would say like, that's piece number one. I do think, uh, on the early stage side, Folks are going to continue to ask, you know, there's a lot of innovation that's happening in AI. Where are the long term competitive advantages actually going to be versus maybe something that's shorter lived until the next version of the model actually comes out?
And I know, you know, y'all have talked about this on the pod a lot, and especially when Sam was on, where, you know, there's this fundamental belief that the companies that are going to be the most successful are the ones that are going to assume That the next version of the model is actually going to be better and the entrepreneurs and the companies that lean into that are the ones that are going to say, Hey, we are going to be able to, you know, Bob and weave with these new changes that are happening and setting up that company for success for the long run and then kind of coming to the.
To the late stage side, you know, we have seen kind of M& A activity start to pick up in the second half of this year, certainly expecting that to kind of continue to extend into 2025. And then, you know, obviously the big question is like kind of when are, when is the IPO market in the U. S. going to start to kind of really open up?
Uh, you know, with the end of this year again, you're starting to see, uh, a lot of companies start to indicate that that is something that they are potentially preparing for in 2025. And so let's see kind of how all of that plays out. But, but if that did start to, uh, open up, you know, I think that is, uh, something that would be very exciting, especially as you start to think about not only from the earlier stage, but all the way through the, through the growth and, and, and public side of markets as well.
[00:25:54] Alex Sarlin: Amit Patel really appreciate your predictions. This is really thoughtful. Thanks for being here with us. I'm at Patel partner at Owl Ventures.
[00:26:01] Amit Patel: Thank you, Alex. Thank you, Ben. Really appreciate you having me on today.
[00:26:04] Alex Sarlin: Bye. Bye. We're here with the great Ben Wallerstein from Whiteboard Advisors. He guest hosted Weekend EdTech just recently and dropped some of his wisdom with Anna from Whiteboard as well.
So Ben. What do you think is going to happen in 2025 in this crazy education and edtech world we live in?
[00:26:21] Ben Wallerstein: It's crazy. So, you know, the one thing when you asked about this, the thing that's been sort of weighing on my mind, and it came up in the context of a board reading the other day, I think that, and this is a little bit of a downer, but the effects of the wind down of stimulus funds will be felt acutely during 2025 K 12 sales cycles.
And I think folks thought that that would be a 2024 issue, and it kind of sort of was. But because the federal government kept delaying the deadlines around the obligation and spending of those dollars, I think the real effects, and again, they'll vary state to state, district to district, but I think the real effects will be felt as we transition into 2025.
[00:27:09] Alex Sarlin: Do you think that's going to lead to certainly some poor years for sales teams? Do you think it's going to lead to some companies having to fold?
[00:27:16] Ben Wallerstein: I'm sure that it will, I'm not so sure that, you know, that in and of itself will be a cause of business failure, because if, you know, we talked about this previously, you know, outcomes tend to win and it may accelerate the demise of businesses that are otherwise, you know, not achieving the sorts of impacts that they might have envisioned.
But I don't think it will be a sole determinant of commercial success within the sector.
[00:27:50] Alex Sarlin: So it sounds like you feel that one of the main decision points the districts will make when deciding sort of who to keep in their stack and who they can't afford anymore if they have to streamline will be They feel like is working or what has shown to work through research.
[00:28:05] Ben Wallerstein: Absolutely. And not just research, but also what they're experiencing as impactful within their districts, because there is such a tremendous degree of variability among districts and across student populations. Yeah.
[00:28:18] Alex Sarlin: And one thing that's always tricky about ed tech is this feeling of like what they perceive to work, maybe what they love, right?
What teachers use frequently, what they feel like their students. Like what they, sometimes it's hard to find distinctions between what is truly working and what is sort of actually making its impact felt in a classroom.
[00:28:39] Ben Wallerstein: Sure, absolutely. And there are, I wouldn't even call them like subordinate or primary concerns, but there's sort of like a multivariable set of concerns.
At play, right? So gosh, like chronic absenteeism is a profound issue. So like we have to bring kids into the classroom. Students have to be engaged first. And so we hear a lot about that. Like, is it motivating for students? You know, I think in some cases when we look at like. Even supplemental resources. We know from educators that they have a profound impact on how they manage and deliver instruction.
[00:29:14] Alex Sarlin: Yeah, that's a really important distinction. I think, you know, I almost read it as usage and teacher love combined. It's like if educators have. Spent the last five years incorporating more and more brain pop videos into their lesson plans, making it a core foundation of how they teach, then it becomes very painful and unpleasant to consider cancelling a district subscription or a school subscription, whereas if it's something that's relatively new and they haven't incorporated yet, or if it's something they haven't learned to use yet, or they haven't sort of embedded deeply, it's easier to
[00:29:46] Ben Wallerstein: pull out.
Yeah. And I think teacher love matters. Like I trust teachers. I hope my mom is listening to this, but like I trust teachers. I think they often will have really good judgment. I'm sure there are examples where that's not always the case, but I do think that that matters. And in the context of that tough decision making, I think we'll look to what's pedagogically relevant in the use case in addition to other forms of evidence.
[00:30:05] Alex Sarlin: Yeah. So that perhaps implies that incumbents or companies that are more deeply sort of entrenched in the school system may. Hang on. And some of the newer entrants or some of the smaller entrants without as much PD without as much time in classroom may be the ones that get cut. I want to relate that to AI.
You know, we know that, you know, there's a whole suite of new AI startups, but there's also, you know, brain pop among almost every other big, you know, entrenched ed tech player are incorporating AI features. Do you think that this will be a year where AI moves from sort of the periphery of all these people having ideas about what they could do in the classroom to no, it's just, it's the core tools have it and a lot of the outside sort of falls away.
But BrainPop AI is used a lot. You know, KITM AI is used a lot. Class Tojo AI is used a lot. The ones around a long time.
[00:30:55] Ben Wallerstein: Yeah, I'm really excited about that. It's interesting. I'm not sure the dynamic will be exclusively favorable to incumbents. I think we're entering a period of tremendous flux, and I think that the flexibility would be a prediction, right?
Like, and if you talk to folks at the federal level in the U. S. Department of Ed, and this applies across both K 12 and post secondary education, you know, I think there's often, particularly when you're engaged with people who have been in and around the department or in a federal, regulatory context for quite some time, they feel very viscerally that local decision makers have so much more flexibility than they choose to avail themselves of, right?
They're asking for flexibility. They have flexibility, but of course those folks, they haven't worked in the U. S. Department of Ed. So it's, you know, I think that there will be increased transparency in a sense. of a perceived sense of flexibility that will allow for shifts in decision making. And so if I go back to like 2003, 4, 5, in the wake of the No Child Left Behind Act, there were shifts in terms of what types of things, you know, districts were purchasing.
Incumbents were being moved out, new. Market participants were being moved in. We've seen this even in the context of state laws around things like the science of reading or new or push around high quality instructional resources. So I think that there'll be a tremendous amount of dynamism and that creates opportunity for both.
Incumbent players to demonstrate their value, but also for new market entrants to play a role. I think also districts are becoming increasingly sophisticated when it comes to thinking about interventions in really, really granular ways. Which will also create significant opportunities.
[00:32:37] Alex Sarlin: Yeah, we covered last week in the week at EdTech that new change in law in Texas that sort of allowed extra money per student for curriculum created in the Texas like the TEA.
And we're trying to sort of make sense of that. Is that something that is yet another push for, as you say, local control, flexibility, the idea of, hey, we want to encourage people, incentivize people to use things that are made. locally rather than buying from the biggest players. I'm curious what you make of that.
And, you know, do you think it's a direction? Do you think it's, you know, Texas going its own way because it's Texas as it does, or is it a trend that we're going to see? Yeah, no, it's a
[00:33:14] Ben Wallerstein: really interesting point. So, you know, a lot of folks won't necessarily remember this, but it used to be like pre NCLB. You know, if you were a sales rep for an education technology company or a publisher, the terminology, you know, like in Virginia, you had the standards of learning and, you know, like even just the way we describe like BOCES versus ESAs versus RESCs, right?
Like, like you had just different terminology describing the same sorts of things state by state, and you could, and I remember this, like just, you know, sitting in. Going to do meetings in Arizona, then popping over to New Mexico for meetings. And you would like find yourself, Oh gosh, sorry. Like using the wrong, like vernacular and terminology to describe the same sorts of things.
And then there was this like harmonization, you know, like you have adequate yearly progress or HQT, like, like the terminology and the acronyms became more universal as a result of like federal policy. And I think if you saw this, you know, the common core. Certainly created harmonization of standards that allowed companies like, say, Curriculum Associates and others to invest in infrastructure because they used to be, you know, selling like the Idaho workbook to Idaho and the, but they could invest because of the harmonization of those standards in technology.
Products that had a more broader appeal, a larger tam, you know, from a commercial standpoint. And I think that we're, I'm not even sure if we're regressing, but I think like the market in 2028 looks more like the market in 2000, or, you know, four or 25 looks more like 2005. That sounds better, but like, you know, in the sense that it starts to look more and more like a patchwork.
Where there's flexibility of states like Virginia that are maybe doubling down on standards and accountability in ways that look more like what a more muscular federal policy look like. And you may have other states that are relaxing. You have like the portraits of a graduate that works really exciting.
So you have your, you know, but it increased variability in permissibility from a federal standpoint in terms of how those things are set up. So the cool thing about that is it creates. Opportunities for innovation as a result of the lack of standardization or maybe the less, you know, lack of a muscular and prescriptive federal.
[00:35:28] Alex Sarlin: Yeah. That's a really interesting take. It's like there's a pendulum swing. And I remember during the beginning of the common core days, people were saying exactly what you just said, that there's a huge benefit in having standardization across the country because it allows people to invest a lot more in infrastructure.
Invest in a set of standards that you know that you can sell to multiple states and just do more with one product rather than having all these variants. But I agree with you as well, that especially in a case of lowered budgets, the idea that a certain state may be really focusing on mental health and wellness, or a certain state may be focusing on absenteeism, certain state may be focusing on portrait of a graduate and competency based education that allows the ed tech ecosystem to say, okay, well we do that.
So we're going to really highlight and focus on Colorado or. Whenever you know, or Oklahoma or whatever states are sort of doing the things that are aligned. And yes, it's a smaller Tim, but if you're a smaller company, that's okay that you're going to restart, you're getting pilots, you're getting, you're building up a reputation and getting the product tested.
So yeah, that's a really interesting take.
[00:36:29] Ben Wallerstein: The other piece is like the technological barriers to creating. Uh, more geographically oriented technology is also falling, right? So, you know, again, like back in the day, if your amplifier curriculum associates, you know, that again, the harmonization across standards and the terminology that was being used in like allowed for that investment, but it was a different, it's a different level of investment.
I mean, you're, you know, a lot more about this than I do. I'm not a product person, but I think like, you know, the cost in 2005 to build something. Is like exponentially great orders of magnitude greater than the cost of building something in, you know, in 2025,
[00:37:12] Alex Sarlin: 100%. We just talked a few weeks ago to your Shapiro from Novo Dia.
It's a company based entirely on that premise of, well, with the standardization, you have all these states with specific. local standards that are not covered by any of the publishers. And we now have the technological capacity to build high quality curriculum in those standards very quickly, much more inexpensively, and actually it'd be positive.
And it doesn't matter if you can't sell that same Pueblos unit, you know, out of New Mexico, it's still revenue positive, and it's still good for everybody. Yeah, that is a huge change. And what I'm very excited about. So last question, something has been on my mind a lot. And I think it's relevant to this.
I'm really curious what you're thinking about in terms of this curriculum space. is we've just seen the last couple of weeks of the year, multiple video models come out from the AI providers. And so speaking of, you know, the drop in cost, that video was traditionally along with games or audio, you know, one of the most expensive things to possibly make for publishers.
It's becoming very, very inexpensive. It's maybe even so inexpensive, you can create it on demand in response to a student question. It's really a new world. What do you think that means? You're a policy expert. So this is something that both has incredible potential and seems very scary to a lot of people.
Video on demand video. What could it do? How do you put guardrails? What do you do? You think video is going to take off this year? Or do you think the environment is going to be putting the brakes on in terms of districts and schools and saying, wow, this is a little step too far for us. We need a little bit while to get used to this.
[00:38:41] Ben Wallerstein: Yeah, I think there will be a tremendous amount of variability. My dad was a middle school art teacher for 36 years and he was, you know, he had like seven, you know, very advanced, like, I don't know, like max in the classroom and he was experimenting with sort of like, you know, Digital animation. And, you know, even that was sort of like controversial within that context, you know, digital media and things like that, you know, there'll be a tremendous amount of variability in the possibilities are really limitless, but I just, I think about like, gosh, like imagine just the potential, you know, for an educator.
You know, who's been teaching for 15 or 20 years, who imagines a resource, a video, a, you know, something that's pedagogically relevant. If only I had a video that could show X. You know, like this is a, this is the thing that like 7th graders just don't get about, you know, the following, you know, and now they can create it.
Again, it's like mind blowingly. Right. Because those teachers are proximate to the needs. And there's, there's certainly this like diffusion when you get from folks who are very, very proximate to the specific challenges in how those, how products have historically been built and packaged and distributed and, you know, across states and districts.
And so this idea of hyper localized. Educator developed product that responds to specific challenges at very, very low cost. I mean, it's so cool.
[00:40:07] Alex Sarlin: It is. It is. And even if, as you say, it makes total sense that people will react in different, some will embrace, some will keep an arm's length, all for very logical reasons.
But I think even If it doesn't happen in a particular state, it will still be happening on YouTube. It will still be happening. Teachers will still be trying these tools out and sharing them publicly. So there could be something very, very interesting happening sort of on the periphery, just the same way that Symbolab and these sort of direct to consumer tools are changing the environment pretty quickly for students, even if they're not necessarily being seen in schools.
Yeah, the same thing is going to happen with video. That's my
[00:40:44] Ben Wallerstein: parents, right? Like, I just don't know. To me, what's so inch exciting is that there's still really a lack of awareness, like, you know, I don't know about tools that exist because I'm a parent, right? Or because another parent told me about them or my kid's teacher said, Oh, you should try extra, you know, or my kid came home from school and I found it online.
Like I know about these things because we follow the industry and we work in this sector.
[00:41:13] Alex Sarlin: Right.
[00:41:14] Ben Wallerstein: But as there's a greater awareness of how these tools can be used, but it's cool and it's fun, you know, and you just think about again, like how, like problem solving AI and just on demand tutoring, how those things start to get stitched together and used on a smaller basis.
I mean,
[00:41:30] Alex Sarlin: I always think back, you know, I think the story is true. It may be apocryphal, but I think it's true. eBay, when it was started, it was because the. Founder wanted to create a way to trade PEZ dispensers, collectible PEZ dispensers, and basically created a site where people could buy and sell and auction.
I mean, silly use cases can lead to very, very powerful technology. So I love that. Thanks, Ben. This is fantastic. Really appreciate it. Yeah. We are here with John Higginson, the chief technology officer at Curriculum associates. One of the absolute giants of the ed tech field. John was the CTO of chief, the private network for professional women in the U S and the UK.
He was a chief product and technology officer at Groupon. He has been in the tech space for quite a while and now working at an incredibly impactful organization. John, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Alex. It's great to be here. Yeah. So you have been working as a CTO for Curriculum Associates since the middle of this year.
You're sort of left with both feet into ed tech. Tell us about what you've been learning over this year and what you expect to happen in the field in 2025.
[00:42:40] John Higginson: Yeah, thanks, Alex. Yeah, this is my first foray into ed tech after a career across a lot of different technology and product spaces. And I'd always been kind of education adjacent.
I've been a board member for a nonprofit that was focused on education. I've been a college adjunct teacher as well as my first foray into it. And it's been fascinating just to see The way that our technology is used in schools, kind of the rhythm of the school year, the way that both districts and educators think about technology has been really cool.
And it's definitely helped us and me think about the evolution of our product set. I think this year was a lot of. You know, for us, it was a lot of, you know, change that we began to roll out our middle school product, giving students who are kind of outgrowing, you know, some of the earlier school year kind of lessons and touch points that we have and something more mature for them and still having that same great deep assessment that leads to great personalized instruction doing that.
And also, obviously we've talked to a lot about AI this year and we've. Begun working on and building some things that we'll be deploying next year. And then probably the backdrop of all of this is ESSER funding is expiring. School districts are thinking about what that means for budgets and where that goes in the coming years.
And just, you know, putting all of that into our perspective about the roadmap.
[00:44:06] Ben Kornell: Great. In terms of going forward on the technology side, we've been in this incredible loop where basically every six months we have a brand new breakthrough in tech and given that you have that deep expertise and you're bringing over into the education space.
What are you looking forward to in 2025 and what's realistic to expect? And what do you think is a stretch?
[00:44:29] John Higginson: Yeah, thanks for that. But I chuckle because you know, having done this for a little while, I could probably replace like the focus area of the year, you know, with whatever the new thing is like, you know, a few years ago, it was blockchain.
She doesn't have a lot of application education, but you know, today it's, it's artificial intelligence. I think the important thing about all technology change is. For us as creators of software and tools that are used in schools is to think about the right application of that technology. It's easy to get caught up in the hype and that's great, but like no school, no teacher who is juggling all kinds of responsibilities wants to be a beta tester for untried things.
And so we think a lot about like the right application of these technologies. So I think about next year. I think there's two things that are happening. I, AI is big and I want to talk about that, but I also want to touch on mobile because I think it's important for us to think about the direction of mobile and education.
So mobile is one of those technologies. It's obviously been with us for a while, but there's two things we have to kind of competing things we have to consider. One is research shows. That students not having access to mobile devices during the school day actually helps them focus. It makes them better in the classroom.
It makes that a more rewarding experience for them. But we also know that in a lot of homes, mobile devices are the computer. That is the main computing device that that family has. And so I think our challenge is, is to find a way to make sure that we create mobile friendly products and experiences. And that's been our focus at CA is making sure that our products can work in a mobile environment, but also giving teachers the control of when.
Those things can be accessed so that there isn't this like draw in the classroom to use a mobile device, which would distract them, but also let them use it at home if that is their main computing device. So let's talk about AI, because that's obviously on everybody's mind. So I think the good news is in terms of just like.
Excitement and embrace of AI as a technology. We are there, like we've done surveys with our schools. We have recognition and embrace of AI in the mid nineties in our schools. Like teachers are excited about the promise of it. And we think about it, not as. Like this new thing that is a totally different experience, but we think about it as a way to let teachers teach AI is most powerful as a way to help teachers manage their day and just give them more tools to provide that kind of instruction to their students.
And one great example of that is something that we've been working on. With voice AI. So about a year ago, we acquired soapbox labs. We've been integrating that into our iReady product. And the whole idea behind that technology is to put it into the assessment. It's a great application of AI. It's a place where we are comfortable putting AI in front of students where we say, Okay, the AI will listen to the students, read a passage, it will analyze their speech and the great part about the technology is it takes into account accents, it takes into account all the different regional variations in speech, and then it gives the teacher a report.
What phonemes do they struggle with? How's the cadence of their speech? How's prosody? Are there certain sound combinations they struggle with? And it gives that teacher a very, very personalized roadmap to help that student become a better reader and to be better at literacy. Generally, that's a great example of where we're taking AI is it's a tool for teachers.
It makes. Assessment better. It makes instruction better and carried forward into that student's career in subsequent years. And you'll see more of that coming from us as well. We also think there's a great opportunity for us to provide other tools for teachers with A. I. And those are some of the things that we're thinking about.
But you're definitely going to see teacher A. I. Powered tools for teachers rolling out in 2025.
[00:48:49] Alex Sarlin: You anticipated my next question, which was about the soapbox acquisition and the voice recognition. I'd love to just double click on that because I think, you know, we've been following the AI space as closely as we can.
And it feels like the next phase of AI in education is going to be interfaces that. Turn things that weren't previously data into data and voice is one of the big ones of those in that, you know, so much happens in a classroom. Children say and do so much when they're learning to read when they're learning anything.
And much of that quote unquote data is not used to personalize. It's not used in an educational context. Curriculum Associates, I think, had a real coup when it acquired soapbox labs. It's a very sophisticated technology, and I think it gave you a real You know, leg up in the ability to move into that space and use voice for really amazing things looking at, you know, without giving, of course, anything away on your road map.
But looking for the next year, do you see that trend of, you know, the classroom becoming a little bit more AI enabled continuing? We've definitely seen a lot of teacher tools for AI, but it feels like there's a little bit of a crossover coming where what's happening in the classroom, even with learners may become a Something that can be used for education through an AI lens.
[00:50:04] John Higginson: We do. So, uh, you know, one thing about soapbox that I'll, I'll share with you is we've taken that team and curriculum associates has also had other folks working on AI in the company. And we've used soapbox as the kernel for a much larger centralized AI center of excellence. So we can push forward, not just on voice AI, but all kinds of things.
And there's. You know, there's things that are here. There's things that are coming in the future, and we want to stay in front of that. You know, there's a lot of talk about using AI, generative AI, for content generation. We think there's a future for that. Today, what we're doing is we're working with that to allow us to move faster.
I'm getting content and lessons into our product with humans still at the center of that, not just like, you know, teachers, you know, you're on your own, go create content, but us creating really high quality content, but leveraging AI tools to help us do that faster and be more responsive to, you know, changes in the curricula.
We also see that ai, you know, beyond voice and beyond like literacy as having an application in assessments, and we're beginning to think about that and work through that today. The backdrop of all this that I, I just wanna make sure that, you know, we talk about is we are very, very mindful of the appropriate use of that data and the protection of student privacy.
It is the foundation of what we've done as a company even before ai. And it is absolutely a non negotiable principle for us as we develop these technologies. Soapbox does a great job and actually has been recognized in Ireland for student privacy, but making sure that that data is only used to help students, only used for teachers.
It's not, you know, brought back into any other uses. It's never going to be resold. And those are just like. Non negotiable principles for us. So yeah, I think assessment is like the next thing coming, like beyond literacy, beyond voice, like just helping provide signals and other information about how that student is absorbing and learning things and applying that.
And I think there'll be other tools for teachers as well, like, like, for example, helping them find resources. There's a lot in our products. Teachers have a lot of just content and data at their fingertips. And we want to make sure that that is easy for them to get to. And that's another potentially great application of artificial intelligence.
[00:52:23] Ben Kornell: This has been so incredible and I love that you're bringing the kind of technology view into the user context of education so thoughtfully. Curriculum Associates is such a big player in the space and will have a big say in keeping that quality, keeping the trust and safety and data privacy and all of that in years to come.
John, thanks so much for joining us. John is the CTO at Curriculum Associates.
[00:52:53] John Higginson: Thank you Ben. Thanks Alex. Thanks for having me today. Yeah. Thanks for being here.
[00:52:57] Ben Kornell: Hello everyone. We are so excited to have long time podcast friend, EdTech Insider extraordinaire, Carl Rectinis. So glad to have you here. Many of our folks know you as the founder of Learn Platform, but this was also a year of transition for you.
So first tell us a little bit about 2024 and what were the themes for you that really animated your work this year? And then also give us a glimpse of your predictions in your crystal ball of 2025.
[00:53:27] Karl Rectanus: Yeah. Thank you for all you do for the sector. It's great to join you again. You know, 2024 for me personally, it was a chance to step back and support others.
I have been really spending time advising organization leaders. Funds and policy makers. And so as someone who's sort of unaffiliated but connected, I'm honored that I get a chance to spend time, you know, helping people think about what the future should look like and how to get there. And so, you know, 2024, what I saw was a lot of my energy was around.
There was a whole body of work around impact centered organizations. How do we scale the impact we want to have? Not as an alternative to scale and growth and financial success, but how do we drive those non financial positive outcomes that we want to in a way similar to what we did, you know, from some of the learnings that learn platform and how we approach that work.
So spent a lot of time with that and I'm really excited about where that goes. I also happen to be. I'm honored to serve on the board of a few organizations and I'm chairing EdSafe AI, the industry council for EdSafe AI, which didn't exist this time last year. EdSafe did, but it did not have an industry council.
It launched in Q2. And already enjoys over 120 different companies, small, medium, large, public, private platforms to wrappers. You name it. These are all organizations committed to safe, accountable, fair and effective AI in the education space. And that didn't exist. An honor to that group gets to work closely with policymakers and others as we think about what the future looks like in EdTech as well.
[00:55:14] Alex Sarlin: Yeah, we've talked so much about AI over the last year, and we got a chance to talk to Steve Daly at Instructure about AI, which they're thinking about all sorts of things there. They were obviously the acquirers of Learn Platform, but you have been doing this incredibly interesting sort of coalition building work somewhat behind the scenes.
I think people who pay attention to the field are seeing it, but EdSafe AI. There was just an AI bipartisan task force bill that just came out from the government, you know, without getting too into the weeds, because this is a short episode, tell us a little bit about sort of what's been happening under the radar in terms of making the conditions so that I can do all the things we're all so excited about in the classroom without breaking everything down.
[00:55:55] Karl Rectanus: I'll just highlight. Yes, bipartisan bill for a I came out of the house. The reality is what I'm seeing is what I'm really excited about is, I think, an evolution in our sector, a maturity in our sector. Traditionally, you know, private sector bad. School district's good, everybody else noise, but the reality, you know, bad D.
C., good local, you know, et cetera. You know, if you look at other sectors, communications, energy, defense, et cetera, they work together and have built muscles around informing policy or investing in research and development around engaging the private sector, the public sector, policymakers, others. Together to drive some decision making around what would be best for the U.
S. and the economy that we want to grow. And I've actually started to see that happen. And as you mentioned, you know, it's amazing what you can accomplish when you don't care who gets the credit. The reality is quietly, I think folks are really starting to do that together. And I think that's what you see in this bill.
You start to see a focus on R& D, connectivity to the workforce, and what I think is most powerful is a recognition that there should be sector specific or vertical specific considerations. Student data privacy, not a requirement in other sectors. Absolutely a requirement in our situation. Ethical use of AI or data to train AI, very important across all sectors, could look different in education.
And that's not gonna be an R thing or a D thing, that's a future of the world thing that we really need to work on together.
[00:57:38] Alex Sarlin: It's a great point. I know you have been investing this year. We spotted your name on CrunchBase. Tell us a little bit about your own investing activities and what you're excited about for 2025.
[00:57:48] Karl Rectanus: You know, my bias is towards impact centered organizations, high impact organizations. I've got a slight bias towards, you know, underrepresented founders. I just get more enjoyment and get to, I've been looking at and working with companies that You know, if they win, we all win. I like systems plays. I'm not really good with widgets, but I am good about thinking about big problems.
And the other thing is it's not all education. I've spent, I would say about half of the work and investments are in the education space, women's health. Medical devices, affordable housing, AI and media, thinking about how to translate the things that we've learned and the things that get me excited, big problems.
And those folks, you know, who are as, uh, Teddy Roosevelt would say in the arena, getting to, you know, enjoy and help them deliver while they're in the arena is just fun. And I can tell you, finally, I'll just say that. Not working on one thing 70 hours a day, it makes it a lot easier, you know, to work 40 hours a day on other people's problems.
I'm having a lot of fun doing that right now. I have four predictions for next year that I wanted to make sure that, uh, as you guys think about it, if you want, I can just rattle them off and we can talk. Let's hear it. All right. It's in really four categories. The first is our U. S. context. I think I define this as federal noise, state innovation, and local execution.
We're going to hear a lot at the federal level. But it's mostly going to be noise. I think under that states are going to have more flexibility. And I think the states that win will have be on the front foot on innovation and investments that they're making and local districts will be executing. They are competing with others.
They will be really focused on delivering better outcomes for more students and executing locally. The second, I think, is in the technology sphere. When we think about, you know, predictions, we're talking about edtech. I think we're going to see more sizzle and more steak. What I mean by that is we've seen a lot of sizzle and sometime a lack of steak.
Look, AI is not going away. We're going to continue to see the front end sort of sizzle. And announcements, but you're going to see a focus on the stake, on the infrastructure, on data, privacy, on evidence building on those folks who deliver against the real problems are going to start to exceed and start to step out and outpace the market reality.
I think we're going to see more marriages, but the same divorce rate. You know, there's going to be more activities, potentially some IPOs, less so in our sector. You're going to see more M& A, more funding. Unfortunately, it's not, it's going to continue to not necessarily be, you know, great. So the divorce rates I think will continue to go down and I think we'll see a little bit more weed from the chaff in that environment.
I think inflation will continue to rise. And the final is our global context. And I'll just classify this as, I think the game of Frogger is going to lead to some leapfrogs. You know, Frogger, you sort of bounce around, try to get through the traffic. That's the context. If you look at Europe, you're going to have to try to navigate everything that's going on and as alliances are built and what the policies look like.
But I think that's going to lead to some very heavy investments and some people leapfrogging. If I look at the Middle East, some nations that are going to invest deeply, I think they may. You know, surprises. I think there may be some surprises out of South America and Africa where some countries are taking some deep steps and could leapfrog what we're seeing in more developed countries.
So those are my four quick predictions for what we're going to see next year. It's
[01:01:28] Alex Sarlin: awesome. Well, the combination of outcomes and global reach and, you know, some mergers, uh, we're going to see some really exciting times for all of us in edtech. The sizzle and the steak. I love that. We talked to Jamiro from Reach.
We said, what slide is going to be in the pitch deck next year? Has to be there. And she said, outcomes. Outcomes is the slide that everybody's going to have to talk about. I think she was channeling Calrec tennis.
[01:01:50] Karl Rectanus: Well, and I will say that Jumeirah has been on the forefront of the outcome that I think is going to be more important next year, which is workforce attainment.
You know, I think you're going to see a lot more tied to the economy. You know, if there's anything that the 24 taught us was that economics trumps a lot of things. And in this case, I think we'll see the market start to really focus on how we get all kids ready for work and success in the future.
[01:02:17] Alex Sarlin: I can't wait to see that all come together.
Carl Rectanus, Learn Platform, Instructure, Investor, EdTech Insider extraordinaire. Thanks for being with us on EdTech Insiders.
[01:02:26] Karl Rectanus: Likewise. Thanks for all you're doing guys. Have a great holiday. Happy 2025. Thanks, Carl.
[01:02:32] Alex Sarlin: We are here with Andrew Goldman. He is the CEO and founder of writable, which was acquired by HMH in early 2024.
And now he runs HMH labs, Houghton, Mifflin, Harcourt, doing all sorts of really interesting things with writing, with attendance, with metacognition, with everything happening in the classroom, with the giant publisher. Welcome to the podcast, Andrew. Thanks, Alex. It's great to be here. So my question for you is you're coming on a year anniversary of joining together with HMH.
What have you learned over this year and what do you anticipate happening next year based on some of the trends you've been seeing
[01:03:08] Andrew Goldman: since February? Gosh, I've learned so much this year about the focus on high quality materials and my focus for 25 was Interestingly, related to what you said in your second point on your prediction for 2025, which is the combination of generative AI along with high quality materials and better data to produce materials that are not only true to the research backing, but also really personalized for a teacher's needs in a classroom.
And you think that will continue next year, you will see more of that movement. You know, in February, we joined HMH to make your prediction come true and absolutely committed to making you right. Wow, that's exciting to hear. It is so exciting and the opportunity for what we Can do for educators has permeated the HMH organization and the excitement level is off the charts.
I've had people come to me that have seen demos of what's in the works and just. So really, really excited about what's coming in 25.
[01:04:37] Alex Sarlin: We'll be watching this space. You got to come on ed tech insiders when stuff is public and then talk about it. Please. We would love to do that
[01:04:44] Ben Kornell: for entrepreneurs that are similarly aligned to high quality instructional materials.
What advice would you have for them in 2025, given the tailwinds and headwinds coming from all different directions? How would you recommend they navigate the year ahead?
[01:05:00] Andrew Goldman: Well, I think it's really important that we put an emphasis on the potential for delivering high quality materials with generative AI.
My biggest fear for 25 is that we get overwhelmed, that we revert back to the DIY days. That followed Google and the market got flooded with low quality materials. And so for the entrepreneurs out there that are delivering high quality, I would encourage them to emphasize their research basis and how they tie in to all the practices associated with high quality.
[01:05:43] Alex Sarlin: So there's been this real growth in the concept of, of grounded AI, you know, AI with an actual grounding in, as we say, high quality materials, pedagogical models, rather than the sort of first wave of, Hey, it's based on the whole internet. It knows everything else, get it, whatever you want. HMH has a. Long history of publishing high quality material in many subjects.
I'm curious how you're putting together the corpus of material, the high quality that lives with a publisher with that amazing ability to generate new content or remix it on demand.
[01:06:18] Andrew Goldman: I think that's probably a topic for a whole show that we'd love to maybe, maybe that's a hard last question for us to do with you, but what I would say is that HMH is, is not only about the content in curriculum, there's a huge.
Component of data and N. W. E. A. Which is part of H. M. H. Is the gold standard for for data out there. And so H. M. H. As a company is really focused on leveraging our understanding of the past. What students have done that have brought them to this moment and then the vision of where they should be going in the curriculum plan and really optimizing for the moment so that the teacher in the classroom with a set of students.
Is able to accelerate through their current material as effectively as is possible. I'm glad you brought up
[01:07:17] Alex Sarlin: the NWA map exam. I think that's a big part of the story. That makes sense. Yeah. So unfortunately we have a short time here with you today, but as you said, there's lots of material for additional episodes and lots of stuff coming down the pipe from HMH and HMH labs.
Andrew Goldman, thank you for coming onto our predictions episode. We appreciate you being here.
[01:07:37] Andrew Goldman: Thank you all. And I did love seeing your predictions, Alex. And when our team saw it, they were like, Oh man, we're going to deliver his Christmas wish.
[01:07:47] Alex Sarlin: Wow.
[01:07:48] Andrew Goldman: Can't wait.
[01:07:50] Alex Sarlin: All right. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of ed tech insiders.
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