Edtech Insiders
Edtech Insiders
AI, Metaverse, and Learning Equality: Kai XR's EdTech Frontier with Kai Frazier
Kai Frazier is a former educator and the founder and CEO of Kai XR, designed to close the opportunity gap in under-resourced communities.
The KaiXR platform, which uses AI and metaverse technologies, is being used by kids in grades 5-8 in schools, as well as juvenile detention centers, to take virtual college tours, learn about advances in science like CRISPR, and teach kids about historical figures like the late Dr. Huey P. Newton of the Black Panther Party.
Before creating Kai XR, Kai worked with several museums such as the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum as well as the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History & Culture, specializing in digital strategy and content creation.
Kai also served as an entrepreneur in residence at the Kapor Center for Social Impact Techstars' Social Impact cohort sponsored by Cox Enterprises, and T-Mobile's Immersive Accelerator. Her work has been featured by Forbes, The U.S Department of Education, NBC, the Steve Harvey Show & more.
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Welcome to Season Seven of Edtech Insiders. The show where we cover the education technology industry in depth every week and speak to thought leaders, founders, investors, and operators in the edtech field. I'm Alex Sarlin.
Ben Kornell:And I'm Ben Kornell. And we're both edtech leaders with experience ranging from startups all the way to big tech. We're passionate about connecting you with what's happening in edtech around the globe.
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Alexander Sarlin:Kai Frazier is a former educator and the founder and CEO of Kai XR, designed to close the opportunity gap and under resourced communities. The Kai XR platform, which uses AI and Metaverse technologies is being used by kids in grades five through eight in schools as well as juvenile detention centers. To take virtual college tours learn about advances in science like CRISPR and to teach kids about historical figures like the late Dr. Huey P. Newton of the Black Panther Party. Before creating Kai XR Kai worked with several museums, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, as well as the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture, specializing in digital strategy and content creation. Kai also served as an entrepreneur in residence at the Kapoor Center for Social Impact TechStars social impact cohort sponsored by Cox enterprises, and with T mobile's immersive accelerator. Her work has been featured by Forbes, the US Department of Education NBC, the Steve Harvey Show and more. Kai Frazier, welcome to Ed Tech insiders.
Kai Frazier:Thank you for having me.
Alexander Sarlin:I'm really excited to talk to you today you're doing some really, really interesting work in augmented and extended reality. Can you start by just telling your story? What is the story behind the creation of Kai XR, and how you came up with it and what it's trying to do to close the opportunity gap? Sure.
Kai Frazier:So I always start off with my background is that I am a teacher. So I taught middle school history, seventh and eighth grade. And inside my classroom, I saw two huge problems. One, it was very challenging to get my students to visit field trips, I taught about 30 minutes outside of Washington, DC near the free federal museums. But I learned the hard way that proximity did not mean access, because our school could not afford the school buses to get there. So you're all though we had the nation's treasures in our backyard, which would have been amazing to bring my students to visit during my US history classes, and even my world history classes, we weren't able to go visit them. In addition that my school had very limited Tech, we actually had a bring your own device policy. So if a student had a smartphone or a tablet, we would ask them to bring their own personal devices to school, we would figure out the Wi Fi and we would go from there. So a big lack of access and tech and a lack of exposure to the world around them. So
Alexander Sarlin:near but so far, right? You having Smithsonian all these amazing museums right there that you couldn't access? What was the epiphany that made you realize, oh, we can actually allow the students to explore anywhere and do all sorts of really interesting things through Metaverse technologies. Absolutely.
Kai Frazier:So with those challenges in school, I decided that I would leave teaching history to actually work with history and some of those same museums. And when I got to those museums, I realized that many of the museum educators had never stepped foot in the classrooms, there was a big gap, while looking at some of the new things that the museum was wanting to pilot. One of those was virtual reality, and it was mobile VR, where you would put a smartphone into a mobile headset, and go from there. So from thinking about that, it just seems so simple. Why couldn't we film part of the museum in VR and bring it to my students that were down the street? So it got really annoying asking that question, I was often met with the response that the museum already had VR, but it was more special exhibition VR, like, check out this virtual reality experience, it takes you through the Syrian conflict, but not so much check out the museum you're actually standing in right now. So that was that just kind of kept me up. So I decided that maybe, you know, if they were making a song, you have that impossible. Maybe I could just go see if I can do it on my own. So I took a VR camera 360 Camera, went to a monument, filmed it in a time lapse, and then brought it back to students. And the impression it made was, maybe make it even harder to give the idea. So it made a big impact. So I decide when to keep going with it, and seeing what it could grow into.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, so what did it grow into? Tell us a little bit about what you've been doing with chi XR and how you've been actually getting this type of education into classrooms, of course, so
Kai Frazier:that was in 2017 2018. Things are now almost going into 2024. Now, which is crazy. Now it's evolved into a full educational platform where students can go in 100 Plus virtual field trips, we have questions and viewing resources aligned to standards, then students the next question after they watch the field trip is how do I make the VR? So you also have a drag and drop Makerspace where kids can really make their own imaginations bring it to life? And what we do we combine those together. So we have lessons now, for example, if a student was doing a lesson on the solar system, they can actually go in and do a virtual field trip through the solar system, and then go into the metaverse Makerspace and build their own 3d model of the solar system and submit that for grade. So everything's standards aligned. So just making it so there is a tool that really incorporates project based learning STEM skills across all subject areas. And it also provides a high amount of differentiation. As every student project is a little bit different. They tackle a little bit different and yeah, just go on from there. So it's really incorporating the technology students know and love, like game design and Metaverse technologies and it really increases classroom engagement for students.
Alexander Sarlin:The first thing you said is, first thing you need to know about me is I'm an educator. That is, you know, that's obviously so core to your philosophy to how you approach any of these problems. And of course, you know, Metaverse when people hear the word Metaverse, we've been talking about it for the last couple of years. They might think metta, or they might think Microsoft or they might think, you know, Playstation or you know, these enormous tech companies have been creating various types of Metaverse is or Roblox we just talked to Roblox. But you are coming from a very pedagogy and teacher and classroom first philosophy. You mentioned project based learning. Tell us a little bit more about how your educator background, it has influenced the development of Kai XR, especially in relationship to some of these big tech sort of gaming Metaverse, options?
Kai Frazier:Sure. So as a teacher, I am very clear that these Metaverse technologies, they are a tool, they are one of many tools that you can use in the classroom where I think what I see a lot of other education, very tech, heavy education companies, it's all about the tech, I think they are just very basic pieces of pedagogy that are tried and true for students learning things. And maybe that's repetition for attention. Or maybe that is, you know, sharing or speaking about what they're learning and things like that. Maybe it's writing it down to reinforce what they're learning. So I think a lot of these tech tools, really throw that away and start completely new. And a lot of the way that things are being built is not sound, and pedagogy. We want students to take a concept and build on top of it and keep going. And maybe that's drawing on background knowledge processing afterwards, too. I see a lot of these things are missing in educational tools, when they're just there's some amazing tech tools. But when it's more just heavy tech, just so we tech tools, it really even collaboration in these digital spaces, I always tell people that if you go into any school, you'll be hard pressed not to see some type of behavior, you know, like manifesto, like at this school, we practice respect and we are trustworthy. And we you know, you go into these digital spaces, you see no weight, of course, you know, so we asked, he was like, why are they behaving like this? You know, that's something that we do for students to develop good character development. So it's very important that we the same aspects come over into these digital spaces. And that's the thing that is a little bit of my pet peeve around what is the world we hope to create for these students in these new spaces. One
Alexander Sarlin:of the things that is really strikes me about your approach, you mentioned sort of paper in that answer and you have a really thoughtful hybrid approach to using XR AR VR in classrooms. It's not you know, put on your headset and disappear for the entire class. It's or it's not even necessarily headset at all. But it's actually a very structured lesson in which the both the creation and the experience of the XR is really contextualized. And it's built into a lesson plan that actually works for teachers. Can you just give us an example of what that looks like? What it would be a sort of start to finish lesson for a student using Kai XR?
Kai Frazier:Yeah, so if I stick with that solar system lesson, the way that lesson starts is we first asked them if they can name all the eight planets, but after that, so we asked them to write down the eight planets, I always think it's going to be easy writing it down. And I see that usually they start with the sun. And we're like, okay, we're Sol System. So when you see that it's okay, you have an idea of what's happening. And then I asked him to maybe sketch out the planet. So you can start to see like that standard talks about the different size and the characteristics of planets. So when they start to sketch it out, before we even touch any check, they're already drawing on their background knowledge, doing some compare and contrast into the planet sizes. And then we put them into the virtual field trip where we have some previewing questions, and we tell them to pay attention to the different sizes, the planets, different characteristics, so when they're done, we Want to have a conversation about what they saw. So when they come out of that virtual field trip, whether they do it on a tablet, a smartphone or a VR headset, we ask them to take their paper, go over partner, and then talk about what did you see, you know, first correct your answers. Were they right? Were they wrong, it's okay, put them in the right order. And now they can reshape and redo their planets, and they can talk to another student. And it's a think pair share. So what happened when you saw this, so a lot of work before and after the headset, and then once they have that, we come back as a group. And we asked them, Okay, now let's go ahead and name the planets together. And hopefully, I haven't cores them naming the planets together. And then once we have you know that together, I give them another opportunity to correct their answers on their paper. And then we go into our Metaverse, makerspace, where they're going to actually build out their Virtual Solar System. So they're using their paper as a guide. So there's a little bit of design thinking. So they start off seeing and sketching and thinking through it. So at the very end, they're not just they're thoughtfully completing their lessons, as opposed to just those of their and going forward, there's no actual building upon the learning. So just an example of how you know, I'm very analog. So I like to sneak in paper wherever I can, and then go from there.
Alexander Sarlin:It's so interesting to hear you talk that through, I would imagine that the educators in the you know, the listening audience here are saying, Oh, that sounds very, very approachable. That really sounds like a way to use VR that actually fits into my life. It's not, you know, having to, I don't necessarily need a headset, the kids are still working with each other. We have paper, we have a lesson plan. And you know, you gave that whole answer in sort of the first person of what you would do, but within chi, you sort of offer that experience and 100 others, right. I've many others, to teachers everywhere. Tell us how that's come across in the classroom. What is it? What have you seen?
Kai Frazier:Yeah, the way we do it is we actually have a like a slideshow. So of a teacher, they can go based on their level of tech savviness. So they just want to stick to the slides. On the teacher side, they just see the slides that walks through the lesson. But they get an adventure co we'd have the we call them that these Learning Adventures, so the Solar System learning adventure, so they get an adventurer code. And with that code, the student puts it in and their full lesson comes up. So it corresponds to the slideshow. So the teacher wants to show an example of the makerspace and start to show them how to do what they can do that. Or they can just go to the next slide. And we have examples in there. So just a pin. So me personally, when I'm teaching, I show how I'm dragging and dropping the sun, how I'm making it bigger. I'm translating, rotating and scaling all the objects. But like I said, if that's not the teachers, if that's not where they are today, because I think they can't be there very soon, they have, we have slides there to kind of help them out from there. So just taking an approach. And then we have teachers that we also let them remix the lessons. So they may see that and say, Okay, I want to own this lesson and make some changes and go from there. So I'm always surprised at the teachers who jump right in and just start to make their own changes. And they make their own projects, too. I have a teacher right now who shares classroom is using chi XR to reimagine what they want their bathrooms to look like. So with that teacher, they are going in making a 3d sample of what the bath the bathrooms look like, and then presenting that to their school administrators. So they can see what the kids want to re envision, you know, the bathrooms to look like, and then they're actually going to fund it because their bathrooms have not been renovated since 1961, which is why the kids are very adamant about that they want a better bathroom for a better learning environment. So they put it better bathrooms make a better learning environment. So I was like, okay, good for you. So that's really cool to see how they're taking project based learning into their own line
Alexander Sarlin:in the spectrum of different use cases, I can't think of two better examples of this two sides of the spectrum as design the entire solar system, the Galaxy on one side, and then design the bathroom in your school in another one. And that's the power of you know, virtual and immersive technology, it allows you to project yourself into any kind of space. One thing that strikes me as really interesting about your Learning Adventures, you know, when the Oculus first came out, it did, there were some sort of quote unquote, educational adventures in there. I don't know what they called the educational apps. And often they were things like, explore under the ocean or go see the pyramids or things like that, that I think, you know, could be described as virtual field trips, but they're very unstructured and exact
Kai Frazier:words, you're gonna say, yes, they're very unstructured, you're
Alexander Sarlin:coming at it from the exact opposite perspective, lots of structure, very systematic. What the teacher has on their slides and what the students have on their platform are aligned. Tell us about that decision to really add structure and what and how your educator background informed it for
Kai Frazier:me, it was never an option to that half structure. You know, I know what it feels like to be in the classroom. I know what it feels like to have 10 minutes left in the bill and trying to figure out what to do. I know what it feels like Sunday night to try to figure out what am I teaching, you know, all these different things. And I think when I talk to different technologists really spending A lot of my development time of chi XR, Silicon Valley, they have no idea of these things, they have no idea of what happens when to expect what happened with the Wi Fi goes down and things like that. So everything can't be centered around that one tool, because you are to expect it to go down, you know, so and then to the students learn so many different ways, you know, we're thinking of IEPs, we're thinking about group work and structure and digital, and there's so many things that I think are, I'll give you a really common example. So my background is teaching. But I also have a background in museums. And for museums, my background museums is dealing with the heaviest subject matter, I work at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, that was a lot of work in that genocides and mass atrocities. And I worked at the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and said history and culture. And that is very civil rights focused a lot of fun cultures to to but very much rooted in slavery, civil rights and things like that. So when I talk to people who want to make a virtual reality experiences, they want to make the kind of take that mentality, you know, if it bleeds, it leads to other things, they want the glorious, the most hard hitting content, and they usually start off with, like, Let's do slavery and VR. And that's just kind of how they start. You know, I would never recommend probably starting like that. But even if we were doing that, we started what are the learning objectives. So if you started learning objectives, you may not have to go that direct angle, if we may, it may be starting with, I don't know, conditions and fields or, you know, economic factors during you know, you know, the mid 1800s, or something like that. So, once you have your learning objectives down, you can decide which way to shape the experience, and for working in museums, without having processing time after the experience. Usually, the artists intentions are not always felt, for example, I have watched people go into some civil rights, VR experiences. And if I remember, there was a white man, I put the headset on. And when he came out of it, he looked at me, and the first thing you said was, No, that wasn't me, I wasn't racist, my family wasn't racist. That wasn't the purpose of the VR experience. So out having that time to think back to process, and kids need that time to help them process through things. And I think that that just doesn't happen that we used to go into like, well, let's be cool, and then make a call, you know, and then it just kind of gets all over the place.
Alexander Sarlin:You know, as I hear you speak about this, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it makes me think that you when you say that, you know, when people are trying to decide what to do in a virtual reality environment, they often jump to, you know, the glorious thing or the thing that sort of most, they think maybe at most empathy building. And it's really interesting how, and I get that instinct, I gotta say, I get that instinct, I get why the first thing that Mehta does is let's put them under water, because that will be cool. Or let's put them into a head of a different type of person, because they'll understand what it's like. And those are obviously, parts of the potential of VR. But I really liked the way that you're taking an instructional design approach to it saying, well, instead of just doing it, because it, it could be cool, or it could help people, you know, maybe build some understanding of each other let's let's actually go backwards from what we know works, let's think about where we're actually trying to take them, and then build from there. And I think it parallels what you've been saying about sort of the tech big tech approach versus a bottoms up educator approach to building VR experiences.
Kai Frazier:Because if they're going underwater, you know, probably are trying to understand underwater ecosystems, right? So you know, so if they're try it, that's it. So that's how you frame is that let's go under water, it's let's learn more about ecosystems underwater. And then we go into what are the key, you know, the essential understandings, we want them to walk away, and then informs in the script? So the script should have those, you know, those call outs, what is the key vocabulary, we want them to know, in it, you know, so, you know, so we do that, you know, by the end of this virtual reality, experience, students will be able to, so now that you have all of that there, you can shape the full experience. So I find that that rarely happens in making virtual reality experiences. I think there's also a lot of experiences where they just took a camera there and kind of rotated around. And I think that that's great if you have some context before and after, you know, so it just, it just can't be I think it's, I don't want to call it lazy content making, maybe call it like, you know, unfinished or ill informed content making, they probably have a little bit of extra needs to go to really drive it home for educational purpose. And that's, I think, for me, one of the hardest things is when I talk to different people, they always say, oh, VR education that's gimmicky. And I don't think it has to be gimmicky. I think that some of the ways it's made can be viewed as gimmicky but that was never the intention.
Alexander Sarlin:I know what you mean. It does sometimes feel a little sort of intellectually lazy, but I I think in a way, it's really coming backwards from the tech right, that's what it feels like. Oh, we can put a 360 camera In the middle of some amazing place, and if we do that people can explore it. And then the sort of you don't have to think any further than that. Maybe people imagine that, oh, well, teachers will, will fill in the gap, right? If we allow students to go into a planetarium virtually, well, the teachers will probably figure out what to do with that. And I don't think that's really how it tends to work. So the idea that you're putting all of this, you know, wraparound material, these prework, these worksheets, these follow ups, these activity collaborative activities feels a very, like a very important part of it. I'd love to hear a little bit about you know, how this has been landing in the classroom, the teachers that are actually making this happen, whether it's the bathroom design, or a museum trip, or the solar system, what do they say about the experience? What does it do in the classroom? And how do students react to it? And educators? Yeah,
Kai Frazier:it always kind of surprises me, I think what I get the most from teachers is students are able to envision the worlds they want to create. So they actually have that autonomy in that agency to go in and, and make those decisions. And these are a lot of kids who have never had that opportunity. Or, you know, when I talk to people sometimes about, you know, what, what's going to be the future? What do kids want? I'm like, Well, did you ever ask the kids, the kids to be involved in this planning. So I think that the kids are not only involved, they're actively doing and they're communicating what they are doing, I think for the kids, they they're just super engaged. Sometimes, I'm always trying to find ways to have those breaks. So we don't have very long VR experiences, they're five minutes on average, maybe a little bit shorter, because I want them to come out and talk about it. So the kids are very much having some great conversations afterwards. And my favorite is, you know, kids hurl feedback at you. So they give me lots of feedback on what they want to see next. So that's always exciting to see in. And, you know, I always tell them, like, you know, if you were ever to make something like this, when would you put into your platform. So they're starting to think about that this is something that they can do a reason why I named the company Kai XR X, I want them to know, it was a teacher of me making it as opposed to like, if it's Oculus, they don't know what that is. I talked to students all the time. And we go through Snapchat, or Facebook, and I asked him, like, Do you know the people who made these platforms? And a lot of times, they have no idea that people made them? Or Roblox or fortnight, and they're just like, what, what do you mean? So that's very interesting for them. So I think it's really opened the world of possibilities. And I think what I see the most is, Kai XR gets new legs when it goes into the teachers and the students. And I can never keep up with what it's going to go to next, which is a good problem to have.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, this whole world moves so quickly. I was gonna ask about that kayak, I think it is, as you say, it's very humanizing for a tech platform. It's like Khan Academy or Craigslist, or some of the things we've seen over the years where it's like, it really are Angie's List, you know, feels like a person rather than a sort of faceless, huge tech, like Instagram. And you people think it's just some sort of natural utility that's out there in the world. One of the things that you're really dedicated to and you sort of mentioned this, at the beginning is is closing opportunity gaps is giving under resourced communities, the opportunity to do things that they aren't always able to do. And some of the things I've seen in the past around Metaverse for this is, you know, how do we get schools the funding to buy headsets? Or how do we sort of throw money at the problem? And we know that, you know, we've been throwing money at these problems for generations, and they are not going away. So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about how you think that, you know, technology might do some of the heavy lifting that increased funding hasn't been able to in terms of closing some of these opportunity gaps?
Kai Frazier:Yeah, I think that technology can do some heavy lifting. But I think that a lot of people, I think they look at the I don't want to call it a problem, I think they look at the challenges in the classroom without looking at it from being in the classroom. So I would encourage more people to insist throwing money at the problem to maybe spend some more time with the subject matter experts, which are the students and the teachers. So teachers usually have a lot of ideas on how to change the classroom, what's needed, but they're used to everything falling on deaf ears, you know, we're kind of a slave to we've always done it this way mentality, or, you know, we have to make the kids pass a test. So we have no room to do today. So it doesn't mean that they don't want to do it different ways is that, that they don't get it done this way, then it will have consequences. So I think also, even I think you could buy all the headsets in the world. But without really getting into a classroom of seeing what is the challenges to, you know, to making sure the headsets make it out the box. I think that's a whole nother conversation too. So we found that the way to make teachers use our platform more is to show up in the classroom and say hello, and say can I help you? Let me show you how to do it. And once I can do that and maybe Demo with the students in the classroom, the students become the teachers. And then the students help the teachers. And then they're all learning together. But when you just give a teacher who has a million things to do all these headsets, for example, that may not be the I don't think it's the right approach. In addition, I don't think that headsets are for everyone. I think that's some people like me, I prefer going into the experiences and tablets first. And I can see that and kind of get an idea when I'm going into and then maybe I'll go into a headset. So a lot of people don't feel comfortable with things or their faces and things like that. I think having that autonomy so people can choose the way you know, to kind of choose your own adventure Do you want to do in a smartphone Do you want to do in a tablet or your laptop person? I think that's really important, too. So but I think you get those things from being in the classroom and understanding the different challenges that come into a classroom, and then finding a way to address it from the ground. And I think what's happening is, it's like, from the top list or money, let's go ahead sets, let's put them in these long PDS and stuff like that. And I don't think I think PDS are helpful. But I think also equally helpful is, you know, some coaching. And it's usually that I feel like they're supportive. But I feel like that's not happening.
Alexander Sarlin:That's a really amazing set of points. And it's felt to me recently, and maybe I'm just hopelessly naive here that there's been more of a realization in the ed tech world, that starting from the actual point of need of educators and students, rather than what can this tech do? What can we do? And how do we just make sure it lands in schools? You know, it feels like there's been a little bit of a set of epiphanies in the EdTech world, heading towards the kind of philosophy that you're advocating here. I hope that's really true. But it's really interesting to hear it from somebody who is both an educator and a tech entrepreneur. And I can imagine that when you walk into a classroom and see, you know, the, you see how the class actually works, and how much time they have for this and that and where they would fit something like this in and and when the student says the Savior hurl feedback at you. Yeah, there's so much to gather from that experience that you just wouldn't never know, just understanding
Kai Frazier:a bell schedule is interruptions, announcements, and you're just in a classroom. And you see how all that happens. I don't think anybody takes into account of what it's like to stand in a classroom. And we're making a lot of assumptions from being way out someplace else. And I think everybody should start in the classroom talking to teachers first. Yeah,
Alexander Sarlin:it makes sense. One of the schools that you've been working extensively at and correct me if I have this wrong is this i three Academy. It's like a public charter in Birmingham, Alabama. I'm curious to hear some of the impact and some of the sort of findings that you've had being on the ground, in that school and other schools in the region. And just really seeing what happens when the rubber meets the road with this kind of technology? Yeah, I
Kai Frazier:think the academy is such an interesting one, because they taught me so many lessons, the biggest one is that they have kindergarteners using tags are, and me, I'm a middle school teacher, I always think middle school first Elementary Secondary for me, but kindergarten is not my starting point. You know, teaching eighth grade kindergarten, you dream. And so when we put high XR in front of or when they put kayaks, our front of it was a K through five school. So they also use it in front of the kindergarten students. And it was so interesting how they were able to use the products, they were able to go on the virtual field trips, they found when they like, you know, watch them repeatedly, they, they were able to build on the makerspace they'll collaboratively together and and makerspace. And somebody asked me they're like, Well, who said they couldn't build in kindergarten? Okay, I guess I guess that's the point. But I think when we think about things from a very headset, lens, we think 13 And over 10. And over now the way they're talking about stuff, we think very much like a preteen. But if you're able to I tell people that you don't even just talking about the technologies you can start doing at a very young age, you don't have to give them the tech, but they can talk about you talk about spaceships, the kids are not on spaceships, you know, so that you can still talk and introduce and show them different things. And I think that we always missed that opportunity, once again, being very tech first, for everything. So by using a tablet, the students were able to jump in and start building at kindergarten. That was the first school that did a school wide design challenge on their own. So they had prizes for like most creative and most unconventional, just and I forgot what the prompt was for their school, why created them, but they built some really interesting worlds. So it was interesting to see the momentum that happened from making it school wide. And I got to the point where I could walk on the street and see a kid of either Academy shirt on and ask them about what they were building and they would just go on and just tell me about all their worlds. So the other thing that we were seeing is that it was extending past the classroom. They were talking to the parents about it. Their parents knew about Kai XR and was encouraged them to build they want to build at home. So for me as a teacher, homework isn't a thing. So this is the first one We saw that there was a need for parents to be more involved, they wanted to be more involved, and the students wanted to work on this at home. So just a lot of learnings that we didn't anticipate, until we got to either Academy.
Alexander Sarlin:It's amazing. These are I mean, emergent behaviors that I think really speak volumes about what chi XR can do, and what Ed Tech sort of can do in the classroom, the idea of going across age barriers that you would have never imagined. And we, you know, you can never underestimate these digital natives. I don't think that term is even used anymore. But these, you know, kids, they've been swiping since they were in the crib, they have so much capacity to learn that through tech. So creating a solar system is just not beyond that. Even if they're three, four years old. That's incredible to hear. I would not have guessed that. But it makes total sense when I hear you say it. And then also that barrier between home and school, which is a little bit artificial in time as well. You know, we've seen, school leaders talk about how Home Access has become a more and more important part of what they're looking for in tech for exactly the reason you just said the tech that's most compelling for students, they don't want to leave it only in the classroom, they want to continue using it.
Kai Frazier:Yeah, and that was definitely a huge learning. We even had a kid who their parent was the architect, so the parent could talk about building indicator buildings at home. So it was a really good bonding activity. So just things we didn't expect. And I know for because of the way we built Kai XR, it can work on just a smartphone signal. So if there is no Wi Fi issues at home, or let's say we were only VR headset, and there's no VR headset at home. That's what happens in a lot of this tech. So we make it so a lot of these tech choices. Were very thoughtful, just to make sure we were prioritizing accessibility.
Alexander Sarlin:It's amazing. I want to go even deeper into this opportunity gap. Because one thing that is really interesting, especially, you know, for a relatively early stage company is that cancer is not used only in schools. It's also already being used in juvenile detention centers. That is amazing. Tell us about that experience how you've done that. And what have you seen? Yeah,
Kai Frazier:I actually just taught a class last night. So we've had a great partnership through T Mobile through the Rotary Club of Houston. And we support the juvenile detention centers of Harris County, Texas, which is Houston, Texas. So you know, we have a good time. I have a special place in my heart for the kids with the most character together. We go into them when we do lessons on moving Metaverse curriculum mechanics are so we talked to them about the basics of you know, what is the metaverse? What is AR? What is VR? What does it mean to be a Metaverse developer into you know, how do you make a game? And how do you use your imagination to think of the characters and their movement. And then after we do all that we let them go and make a game in the MakerSpace. So since they're in Houston, we have a very space focus for them. So they actually build a space station and we tell them like you know, you're building a space station, we're astronauts preparing for the next mission, what were they see what what they do. And then you can do you can make animations, you can make your spaceship blast off, you can do a lot of cool things. And then at the end, they present it to the class. And what we do is we're able to record the students and what they build, it can also go towards the portfolio for them. So when they actually do go in front of the judge, they can show that they've been doing different steam based activities, and it helps them hopefully expedite the release. So yeah, most of these students have been accused of some type of crime small or big. And these are residential centers where they are here 24 hours a day. So anything they can do everything at these centers are considered contraband. So although they can't always do VR headsets, they can't do tablets, everything has to be kind of locked down on tablets. So we have to get kayaks are approved. So once again, by making it super accessible, we're able to get into these areas would who would never see this technology. It's
Alexander Sarlin:incredibly inspiring. I mean, just putting together the through line from your origin story about we ride by these amazing museums, but we don't have any buses. We can't get anybody. You know, we can't get it to work to being able to bring space and huge experiences into closed, you know, settings,
Kai Frazier:next door to the space sensors. But I've never been there seen there. So we really bring that home for them. They can think about their town. Yeah,
Alexander Sarlin:yeah. And the fact that there's a real world application that they can actually use these artifacts as part of a portfolio within the justice system is just mind blowing. That is so exciting to hear. Yeah, that's my
Kai Frazier:favorite part to see, you know how it helps them at the very end, because they need positive examples if presented to the judge and what they're doing, what they're learning, and how they're making their time at the center. Very productive.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah. One of the things that's so exciting about chi XR, and you sort of mentioned how everything is contextualized within lesson plans, their learning objectives, it's really actually set up as a learning experience rather than just a Let's put on our headset and see what happens, you know, and see what we can see. So far. Have you seen learning outcomes? You know, have you seen students coming out of these experiences, being able to do more or no more or how are you measuring outcomes, I guess is what I'm trying to ask.
Kai Frazier:Yeah. salutely. So the big thing that we measure for is classroom engagement. People always go straight to did their grades improved, we find out they're not engaged and nothing happens. So that may be you know, having in class opportunities extended to home, that may be teachers reporting fewer incidents of classroom issues that may be teachers reporting that students are more focused and self directed. And then you know, that they're actually completing their full task. I know, as a teacher, I have lot of zeros that I agree, you know, so just making sure you're actually getting through their work. I always remind people, we don't want their grades to be perfect. We don't expect perfect on other students. But what we do see that we also measure is increased critical thinking, how are the discussion questions happening? Are they able to dig deeper, we have students who are doing peer to peer teaching, so they can actually no, no think pair shares are talking about what they're learning. And then we have students who are more engaged and see themselves in these disciplines, whether it's steam or any new subjects that they're actually learning. So that's the basis of what we measure for. And on top of that we're starting to get into, are we seeing an increase in grades? Are we seeing a decrease in truancy, different things that really stem from classroom engagement? Yeah,
Alexander Sarlin:so a lot of behavioral outcomes, lots of engagement outcomes, and then branching into actual efficacy of teaching, you first came across my radar in the context of as a contributor to the Harvard Graduate School of Education reports on virtual reality and how it can be used in education. And some of the studies they cite in there were really inspiring in terms of basically, they have been doing some, you know, sort of a b tests, randomized control trials, where they are very interesting, where some students learn something in one way, and others learn it through VR, and they actually have the learning outcomes are improved if they do it through VR. And it's really interesting, because I think that we're entering this age of efficacy, you know, everywhere we teach schools really want to use tools that work as well as engaged students. And I'm really excited for more of that type of study, to be publicized, because it surprised me, you know, when I read that report, I had not heard that there was already some real evidence of the learning efficacy of VR, but it's,
Kai Frazier:it's definitely out there. I tell people, I think they assume I'm very tech savvy, or I really love VR. And really, at the teacher, I saw a kid go into a VR headset. And when they took it off, they sounded like a Wikipedia page. And I have never in my life seen that heard that. And I was like, What is this thing, and that's how I got into VR wasn't I like to technology or anything, it was just what is this tool that I'm seeing that I can already see the qualitative data come back, I always have people from teaching, you know, year after year, great after great you're seeing data come through. So I can see how the kids are engaging differently, what's not working, where they're having lags, I saw a huge gaps in critical thinking when cell phones came out. And so you would think the smartphones would make them smarter, but they no longer had to, like, look in, you know, like, you know, even something as simple as like, oh, looking at encyclopedia, they have to know how to go after the order and go back and find it and think about what stopped, you know, but now, which is typing it in, and that's done, it's really taking out of those steps. So I talked to some teachers and times about, you know, what we're seeing our students like, since they don't handle money anymore, and they don't see quarters, they can't do like 25%, like they can't do small numbers, or they don't look at a clock, you know, so it's little things that you're seeing are missing. So as a whole, when it all comes together, you see the gaps. And you're like what's happening here. So I think a lot of us think that technology is making things a lot easier. But I think about you know, having a pedagogy lens on stuff, we're seeing that we gonna have to course correct some things to make sure that we're going in the right direction for increased learning outcomes.
Alexander Sarlin:That's so interesting. I'd never thought of those metaphors of that some of you know, the analog clock or that change that students don't deal with nearly as much as they used to, you know, was actually creating schema that people could build on. And now that that's fascinating,
Kai Frazier:it's really taken up their numbers since they don't have that anymore. Yeah, really interesting.
Alexander Sarlin:And yeah, virtual manipulatives have been proven for many years, but they're not always actually used. The idea of virtual manipulatives in really engaging settings in VR is really exciting as well. Absolutely. So we haven't talked about AI, even though obviously, AI is the word of the day. And I think, you know, AI and Metaverse XR have sort of been riding parallel for the last couple of years. Tell us a little bit about your thoughts on you know, as AI and VR become more and more prevalent as they sort of come together which they often do. You know, what are your thoughts on ensuring that they actually lead to the kind of outcomes we want that people that access is actually, you know, maintain for students in under resourced communities, the students who need them the most? Like how do you think about you know, you're working in juvenile detention centers, you're working in schools in Alabama and Houston like tell us a little bit more about your over arching thoughts about how we can make sure that AI and VR are distributed equitably as we move forward.
Kai Frazier:Yeah, I feel very strongly that I don't care if it's social media, if it's Facebook computering. If it's AI, I think that we, as a community have to have conversations about the lessons learned in the missteps, each time technology rolled out, and you know, even going coding in there. And I think we can say things like, facilitators not having enough information, enough training about the new technology, the opportunities and pitfalls, I think that, you know, supervision of students and these new technologies and what's happening, I think of accessibility of what happens when they're not exposed to or they're exposed very late. And I think that these are happening every single time a new platform or a new technology rolls out. So I think about, you know, handheld devices, it was a whole bunch of kids, maybe on YouTube, and going maybe to places they shouldn't be going and nobody supervising, we don't know how to protect students in these new places. If it's social media, maybe we're thinking about all the bad things that can happen. So we just say we're not going to use it, instead of thinking about where some great things that could happen opportunities. So I think of AI I think at the very basic, there has to be an education of what is AI? How do we use it? What can a computer do? Why is our brain different than a computer? What are some ways that skills that we'll need, I think about all of these technologies, this is where our 21st century skills should be improving, whether that's, you know, adaptability, critical thinking, problem solving, I think that we keep missing the boat there. So I think that we need those foundations and those lessons, once again, building context and learning so we can be prepared for the next technology, including AI.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, that's a really, really interesting, I totally agree. And it's been really wild to watch over the last year, sort of some of the whiplash that we've seen among some of the largest school districts in the country where their first instinct, like you said, with social advantage, that, like, we don't know what this is, and scary, let's not use it. And we've seen this huge swing. I mean, we just saw it in New York, a month ago, where it went from Bennett to actually this is the skill set of the future. And we need to make sure there's equitable access. So let's have a totally like, I think there's I hopefully this is progress, right, that people have learned from the coding, the failure to, you know, allow coding to be spread equitably, as it became a more and more valuable skill set, or it's feeling like there's some lessons being learned. But there's always unpredictable things in any tech. And I think AI is like one of the most unpredictable texts. Everybody knows
Kai Frazier:this, because it moves so fast. And I think maybe if we as an educational community, you know, put together a framework of how to evaluate what are the pros, and then we can apply that to each thing. So how do we keep kids safe? How do we educate teachers? How does accessibility play a role in making economic change? You know, and we've even just those three lenses we can evaluate the tech from, we will be in a really good place, but it always ends up being like you're saying this like whiplash? And what do you know, what do we do it and I think that we deserve it to the kids in our educational community to figure out better ways to evaluate the tech and to roll it out, you know, even if it's just like, you know, a couple of teachers that are starting to learn about it, and share it to their best teachers and go out like that. But I think it's just like, either you saw a post about it, and you want to know more, you did it, and it's on you. And I think that we can do it a little bit better than
Alexander Sarlin:that. Yeah, I love that last point, in particular, because I really feel like that's where we're at. I mean, where I'd like if teachers want if educators see this movement and want to get involved, they can sort of lean into it, use their small amounts of spare time to learn about it and try out different tools. And it's a lot to ask of educators who are already stretched very thin, who are already burned out from pandemic is, so tools like chi XR, that provide structure, they provide lesson plans, they provide learning objectives, they allow the tech to be implemented in a way that actually is contextualized. That's teacher friendly, that student friendly, that's creative that actually has, you know, makerspaces involved in it is really exciting. And I hope that that model continues to spread that people are starting to think of, you know, it's not just about make attack and hope the teachers can find it and train themselves and make it work in their context. It's we have to really, really meet them where they are. Yeah, absolutely. We end every podcast with two questions. And this first one is gonna be a little funny, because the question is, what is the most exciting trend you see in the Ed Tech landscape right now that our listeners should keep an eye on? And we've been talking obviously a lot about XR and VR. Where do you think this is all going? What's around the next corner?
Kai Frazier:Well, I think that where it's all going is how do we apply it to the world that we live in? I think a lot of times, it's like XR over here. And that's cool. But how is it going to, you know, like when we talk to the juvenile detention center, and we talk about Metaverse, technologies and AR we actually You know, what would you use AR for or VR for and when kids said, I would love to see what a tattoo looks like beforehand, so I can make a better decision. And then we'd see kids have neck tattoos it like they're seeing in the center, you know, if it was like, you know, so it's a real real thing. He's like, you know, maybe if I would have known, I wouldn't have did that. And I could have seen him AR, I had another kid who said, like, we don't get training skills in here, and I want to get out and get a job. So I don't come back in here. So how can we are be used for me so I can train and do better? So I think, you know, we talked to start off talking about project based learning, but I think the kids deserve opportunities to think for themselves and see how they can apply the technologies. What are we teaching in school, I think a lot of times no stem and an XR, it's pretty much kept to the STEM subjects. And me as a history teacher, my pet peeve is it never made it to my class. So I'm always big on putting that a and steam for a lot of things, even when I do and Silicon Valley talking to people is very much on the coding, but not much the idea, what are you coding? What is the idea and the premise and that's usually missing? And that is the ANC theme, you know, so how do you incorporate the arts and humanities in making an experience about the actual subject matter. So I'm looking forward to having more opportunities to see 21st century skills come out, project based learning come out, and students being able to apply these technologies to what they imagine their features to
Alexander Sarlin:be? Amazing, very inspiring vision. And I love the focus on going to what people are asking for and what they need, rather than what we can do. And hopefully they can find a use case for it. The tattoo idea is brilliant, by the way, oh, my god, there must be an app for that already. If not, it's or like an AR tool for that. And the final question is, you know, what is a resource that you would recommend for somebody who wants to dive deeper into the topics we discussed today, and goal here is, you know, something that has really opened your eyes to this world that you would share to our listeners where they can really understand it a little more in depth, the way you have really, really gotten deep into this. Yeah,
Kai Frazier:so I'm gonna go for an unconventional resource that I would do. I always encourage teachers that, like, we're just talking about AI and social media and how people are jumping. I think that as teachers, it's our responsibility to help students decide what is their next path. And we don't really know the jobs of the future. So what I encourage teachers to do as a resource for these tools, is to go to LinkedIn, and go put the companies in and see what jobs are related with these fields, so they can have better conversations with students. So for example, if students love Snapchat, they love making content, can they be a content creative manager at Snapchat? If they like doing, you know, AI? Can you be an AI data engineer at Snapchat, you know, so I think having that vocabulary of different jobs and careers and taking it upon yourself to make the connection to what our jobs are Roblox what our jobs at fortnight? I feel like that's missing, we're talking about, yeah, these technologies are cool. But what can kids do to really shape the future. And also, I'm big on having a very big diverse workforce. And a lot of kids don't even know these jobs. The kids who are on these tools you've been mostly have no idea these jobs exist. So I want teachers to use it as a resource or be proactive about ushering kids and having these great conversations about what their future can look like, and why we need them in these roles. Incredible.
Alexander Sarlin:And you know, I think that fits the through line of everything we've talked about today, which is about humanizing. You know, you mentioned earlier, kids uses tech, and they don't even realize there are people behind it, let alone what the job titles are, and who those people are, and what training they needed to get there. And I think that is a brilliant idea. It's so funny, you know, I agree with you, I actually also consider LinkedIn, maybe the best learning tool there is, and people don't realize how much you can do with it. You can like, you can go so deep, you can figure out exactly how a company is organized, you could figure out exactly what people have done in their past to get any job. I mean, it's really amazing. If you see it almost as a map.
Kai Frazier:Absolutely. I even had that to plug myself and that to anything. But I even have a LinkedIn teacher transition course, where we want to know about different skills that he went another job LinkedIn contracted me to teach it is a 12 part course, where we talk about how to usually get as a teacher to look for your next career. So you can be a curriculum specialist or, you know, all these different things that are there. But teachers usually don't know where to start,
Alexander Sarlin:please, please, we will definitely want to that link as well in our set of resources that we're going to put in the show notes for this episode, because we get lots of incoming requests from teachers who are trying to make transitions into edtech. And that is, you know, incredibly valuable. Like, I'm really excited that that exists. I didn't know it did. We will put a link to that in the show notes. I'll make sure you get it. For sure. Kai Frazier. You're doing such fascinating and such impactful work. I'm really glad we got a chance to chat today and I'm sure that our listeners are feeling that inspiration that I'm feeling when I talk to you that sort of hope about The future and how we can actually use tech to make teaching better, more equitable, and listen to the teachers and students. I really appreciate you being here with us on Edtech Insiders.
Kai Frazier:Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Alexander Sarlin:Thanks for listening to this episode of Edtech Insiders. If you liked the podcast, remember to rate it and share it with others in the tech community. For those who want even more Edtech Insider, subscribe to the free Edtech Insiders newsletter on substack.
