In this episode of Week in Edtech, Alex and Michelle discuss:
1. AI
2. BigTech
3. K-12
4. Edtech
5. Higher Ed
6. M&A & Funding
Special Guest:
In this episode of Week in Edtech, Alex and Michelle discuss:
1. AI
2. BigTech
3. K-12
4. Edtech
5. Higher Ed
6. M&A & Funding
Special Guest:
Welcome to Season Eight of Edtech Insiders where we speak to educators, founders, investors, thought leaders and the industry experts who are shaping the global education technology industry. Every week, we bring you the week in edtech. important updates from the Edtech field, including news about core technologies and issues we know will influence the sector like artificial intelligence, extended reality, education, politics, and more. We also conduct in depth interviews with a wide variety of Edtech thought leaders, and bring you insights and conversations from ed tech conferences all around the world. Remember to subscribe, follow and tell your edtech friends about the podcast and to check out the Edtech Insiders substack newsletter. Thanks for being part of the Edtech Insiders community enjoy the show. Welcome to This Week in ed tech, we're here at the end of March we're prepping for the ASU GSV conference and the air show the first ever AI revolution show in San Diego. And we have a special guest host today speaking of Southern California, Michelle Cho, the founder and CEO of Gladio. Welcome to the podcast. Michelle.
Michelle Cho:Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Alexander Sarlin:I'm excited to have you here you have a really interesting perspective as a founder. And as somebody who cares a lot about workforce development. So Gladio is a career navigation solution. Tell us a little bit of what that means. And what Gladio has been doing, including what you've been doing with AI? Yeah. So
Michelle Cho:I mean, we're an EdTech and workforce tech company. I mean, that's like a new subset of EdTech, our mission is to create a more inclusive, equitable and prepared workforce. And the way we do that is we create regional storytelling, inclusive career navigation platforms. And what's unique about that is that we actually bring the whole workforce ecosystem onto one platform connecting middle school, high school students, community colleges, for years, employers, workforce boards, and we also have a digital career development curriculum that we distribute to K through 12.
Alexander Sarlin:That's awesome. And being at the center of this ecosystem, where you're connecting all of these different players, both within schools, within corporations within, say, states and governments, gives you a very interesting viewpoint into all the things happening in the workforce space. Talk to us a little bit about your take on AI, because as you know, we always talk AI on this podcast. Yeah. So
Michelle Cho:I mean, from an edtech founder perspective, if you're not integrating AI, you have to right? I mean, when it became ubiquitous, I mean, we had already been using Chet GPT in house, right, everyone on our staff was utilizing it, and the productivity level just skyrocketed. But we also have been integrating it into our tools, we have a skills gap analysis tool, helping people figure out what skills they already have, through their past jobs, and through also their life experiences. And so we integrate AI in that as well. The adoption has been good. If there's professional development, there needs to be some training for the actually end user, actually not the students as much, mostly the educators, you know, students, this generation and grew up with iPads when they were two, right? So they're just so adept at technology even better than I am, right. So that's where AI is going. But I think AI and education, I just learned that it's definitely getting adoption in the administration level, like in LAUSD, but also in the classroom level, but there definitely needs to be way more professional development and looking at the risks of whatever privacy, equitable access training. So I'm really looking forward to seeing how AI will revolutionize the classroom, but also increase equitable access to more personalized learning. I
Alexander Sarlin:agree. And you know, what, one of the things that came out this week was this interesting report from Ed Week about how actually very few teachers are getting that kind of professional development that they need. As you said, students love this stuff, right, they can jump in and use it and try it. And they're very used to new tech. But teachers, even those who I think want to be using AI in the classroom aren't getting enough training to 70% of teachers report, they've had no AI professional development at all, only 5% report that they've had, you know, regular professional development on AI, that's a you know, a pretty small number. I know it's a new technology is still a pretty small number. And I think that is hopefully something that's going to start changing because of all those issues you just named you know, teachers aren't comfortable educators are uncomfortable for for the right reasons jumping into something unless they understand the ramifications of it and privacy issues and, you know, bias and all this stuff. So I think there's professional development and this permission structure to use AI in the classroom is still being developed. And I think that brings us to our first topic. So let's talk about AI and you know, sometimes this eats up a ton of the podcast. But I think there's a couple big stories this week we can cover and relatively quickly. One is about the open AI new Surah video tool, which is still not released. But it is right on the horizon. And seems like there is a lot of interesting buzz about what it might do and what you know, Sam Altman and open AI are trying to do with it. What did you make of some of the news that, you know, Sam Altman is starting to go to Hollywood and talk to people there or that you saw her as using these huge numbers of GPUs? What did you make of the of the SOAR news show? Yeah,
Michelle Cho:I mean, I was excited that he was going there. And he was actually interfacing with creatives. Ai, because so my background actually was in Hollywood, me and my co founder, that's where we started before we created an edtech company. So we've got a lot of it's very polarizing, right? The studio's love it because it cut costs shareholder value, right. But the creatives, they're already living in scarcity, because it's so hard. Most creatives are freelance bottle, right? So you never know when your next gig is going to actually happen. So when AI came into play, there was the whole writer strike, right, and the actor strike. And a lot of that was negotiating how you know, they were scared that they're gonna get less work. And creatives are already are scarce. With work. Yeah, right. Like, it's really hard to navigate Hollywood there isn't like, you know, if you notice, most people are not on LinkedIn, creatives are not on LinkedIn, Hollywood does not hire at LinkedIn, which I don't really understand why. So it's really who you know, partying. So I love the fact that actually, Sam Altman went there and started to talk to them. And he can actually see the human side of like, when he's designing his tools, how do you make sure that you're actually designing it for the creatives, not just shareholder value studios? Right. And I mean, from what I know, it's new, right? It happened recently. So I'm looking forward to the partnership, the collaboration, the actual respect of both sides, because I think when tech and creative merge, it's magic, because they're just they're two different things are complementary. So they should never be fighting, they should work together. And then I mean, that's why in the United States, I mean, Los Angeles, our biggest export here is entertainment, and its culture and its media and entertainment is not just, it's just not just TV, it's you can change people's minds. You can inspire people, you can motivate people. So I hope technology and creatives just really work together. And I'm looking forward to seeing that. I
Alexander Sarlin:really love those points. And I hope that it is true. I hope that you know, similarly, that Sam Altman and other AI, you know, gurus right now are going into many fields and trying to sort of do the right thing and make sure that they move things forward. You know, I hope that some of the thinking you just reflected of like creatives are a huge part of Hollywood, not just the studios. And the executives. That said, it's unclear yet, to me, at least whether he gets that because it sounds like what they're doing. And we'll say, you know, who knows, but the news is that they're going, you know, Sam Altman is holding meetings with Hollywood studios, with talent agencies, with executives, attending parties, and you know, a surah is about to be launched with, you know, 720,000 GPUs, they're expecting it to be massive, and they're sort of ready to go, I really hope that we don't look back at this conversation and say, oh, yeah, they were about to do that. And that sunk the entertainment industry even more because actors and voiceovers and special effects artists and faculty, I mean, set builders, like, you know, there's so many aspects of entertainment that take, you know, blood, sweat and tears that can be automated with this, they already have with CGI, but this takes it to the whole nother level. I hope you're right. I am not. I hope that's how they're thinking yet. I hope you are though.
Michelle Cho:Yeah, I'm an optimist. I mean, as an entrepreneur, you have to be right. So I'm trying to I'm like manifesting it by saying that, please. Because I do think working together is just better always. And not just competing, or not destroying and disrupting too much. I think disruption is good. But I remember remember when digital went into Hollywood, and that was just huge disruption. But it ended up fine. Okay, fine for the viewer. But it opened up the world, it opened up the world. So now as a viewer, we're able to see things in China and Korea In South America and things like that. And so I'm watching stuff in Spanish, and I'm actually learning different languages. And then also a lot of people who maybe couldn't be in a huge movie, but they're doing a series. I do think they actually get to have more roles. Yeah, you know, before I don't think film actors could actually go into television because there was kind of like this cache and then your, your quote, your like, your fee would go down or something like that. But digital change that so I mean, yeah, whenever there's any type of change, there's gonna be some pain, but hopefully there'll be a net positive. Yeah, I
Alexander Sarlin:really hope so too. And it has been interesting too. That entertainment world has changed so much in the last few years with the rise of streaming and Netflix and all the changes you just named? In some ways, you're right. I mean, three quarters of the things we watch on Netflix right now are from other countries. Yeah, title. And it is really interesting how that's really global as the nature of entertainment. And I think there will be similar unexpected consequences of AI. You know, connecting with a creative might have Hollywood, one of the things I'm really excited about is young people and students and educators having the power in their hands to create Hollywood level movies and Hollywood level video clips. I mean, that is incredible video, and especially film has been such an expensive strategy to make content for so long that you know, teachers might film themselves in their houses and put it on YouTube for a flipped classroom. The teachers were not making, you know, historical fiction, or, you know, historical recreations of the Napoleonic Wars for their students. But they will be they will be very soon it's going to be a really wacky world, a couple of other big tech slash AI things that we should really talk about. So we talked last week about how Apple and Google were starting to work together. And Apple instead of sort of doing its own models is really starting to look like they're incorporating other more advanced models into their hardware. And they were looking at Gemini, this week, there's an announcement that actually iOS 18 from Apple may include and throw pics model. So that's another partnership and the in China, they're likely to use I do. So it seems like Apple is doing this very interesting sort of broad strategy where they have the hardware, they have the computers, they have the phones, they have the tablets, but instead of sort of building their own AI, they're looking to partner with several of the model leaders. What do you make of that strategy?
Michelle Cho:One thing that I do like about Apple is that everything's connected, right? So like your messages, your phone, your MacBook, I mean, I think that's one of their competitive advantages. So if you're working with partners, and if it's not a native, a native AI, is it all still going to connect? Because like, for instance, translation, when everything is connected, then I don't have to close one app and open another app to translate and copy and paste. Right? So I'm curious, I don't know enough about it. I definitely want to look at like how they're going to be integrating it. Right? Yeah. But if it actually makes the user experience on the iPhone, even more seamless than it already is, where it's connecting everything, then yeah, I'm all for it. But hardware is not my specialty. So I'm like, How is everything going to connect? Yeah, if there's going to be multiple AI partners?
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah. And so great question. And I mean, there were rumors about one AI being used for on device features, and another AI being used for chatbots. And you're right, I mean, Apple is obsessed with ease of use and design, and they sort of revolutionize the field. So I'm sure their goal is that it is all integrated and smooth and you know, keeps exactly the smooth flow of everything happening on the phone and computer that you expect, whether they can figure out how to do it, especially if they're using multiple models, I think is the question. But I would you know, Apple has trillion dollar market caps, it has a lot of design talent has a lot of tech talent. I feel like what they're kind of doing here, it's almost exactly what you're saying. Rather than trying to be to compete with the Googles and open AI is and divide us and throw optics for the models. They're saying, you know, what our real expertise is user experience in hardware. Yeah, so let's re design. So why don't we figure out the way to make this AI feel natural to people and something that you can use every day and all your apps and do the translation and move data from one place to another or have your photos be able to be updated with AI and then moved here and that like, I think it's going to be hyper integrated. And even if on day one, it's not that amazing. I don't know if you've ever gone back and used an old iPod, or early stage iPhone, they're pretty clunky. Like compared to where we are now. Even they want if it's not amazing, he will quickly become amazing. So I'm pretty excited. You know, we talked a little bit recently about how in this AI age, all these things are happening, but we don't necessarily feel it in our normal flow of life, right? You have to sort of go to church EBT or Gemini, or this new ngrok gr o Q, which is really interesting, very fast. You have to go and seek them out. But in the near future, it's just going to be built into all the things you already do all your emails, all your documentation, all your photos, all your right and your podcasts. And that is when it's really going to go mainstream. Yeah,
Michelle Cho:I agree. Because already like software as a service like company software as a service like Slack airtable All that is already integrated HubSpot. Right. So yeah, now for the consumer, the personal consumer to have that that would be awesome. And that just will up again, maybe personal productivity, right? Because right now it's company productivity has been increasing because of AI. But I want to also make it easier to find a great restaurant or like plan my weekend, right? And to be able to do that where everything connects. Just like HubSpot has AI and all the other SaaS companies. I'm looking forward to that. Yeah, yes,
Alexander Sarlin:I am, too. can sort of imagine that future Apple unveiling video with Tim Cook and all those Apple design people saying, Look, I just you know, because I went on the internet and search for this, the AI knew that I was probably interested in that and this and this and it got downloaded this for me. And it suggested that like, you can sort of really see it all working together. It's really interesting. So speaking of big tech integrations, the last big tech story, which is much closer to home for our edtech world is Spotify this week announced a partnership basically with four different content creation companies in edtech. It's Skillshare play virtuoso, which is a music content company, BBC maestro, which is basically the masterclass of the UK with all sorts of Big Star people, and Thinkific, where creators can create their own content. Spotify is rolling out an education product. First in the UK, obviously, they're testing it there to see if it's going to work, where you can go and buy courses on Spotify. on any topic, including, you know, all the topics are just named in music and business in writing and all sorts of creative arts. That's pretty interesting. What do you make of it? Do you think this is gonna work?
Michelle Cho:Yeah, I mean, is it going to be like a subscription model or like a purchase of each course? Is it going to be part of the monthly subscription? Great
Alexander Sarlin:question. It sounds like at launch, it sounds like what they're saying is the first two lessons of every course are free. So it's freemium. But a total course has a cost. So it sounds like it's its course, by course, purchasing, at least as of right now is what I'm hearing.
Michelle Cho:What's interesting is the Thinkific. So that's like people who are not part of, you know, huge MOOC or anything like that. So, yeah, to be able to get I mean, Skillshare is like that as well. Right? So it's like, actually, you know, many experts, knees, creating their own courses and stuff like that. So yeah, I do think that, you know, I think maybe the adoption of online learning will increase for that. And I'm all about that. Because we are living in an age of lifelong, you have to be a lifelong learner. You know, there's Gone are the days of you just go to college, and then you're done. Right? So I do think if it's going to increase lifelong learning, and constant upskilling, and skill building, and maybe there's some type of psychology where it's right next to your music playlist, I don't know, like, hit a dopamine or something like when you you're watching listening to music, and then you feel motivated. And then you do some type of skill building course. Yes. But yeah, if I think it might increase because everybody uses Spotify for their music. So I think people who weren't doing online courses, it will increase the usage of just the adoption of more MOOCs and more online learning. So I'm excited about that. Because that is something in our world that we instill in K through 12, you can no longer just, you know, learn in middle school, high school, and then in college, you have to constantly learn, so just get your mind right there. Right, especially with AI tools, you know, every single industry is changing, the workforce is changing. I mean, when skilled welding is changing, they're integrating that AI into welding. So you need to start, you know, making your mind more malleable and excited about constantly learning for the rest of your life. So if that's the case, yes, I'm very, very excited. As
Alexander Sarlin:you're talking about the sort of workforce training and the career training and the lifelong learning, you know, especially for career advancement use case, I'm realizing that, you know, none of these partners are in that use case at all. These are very much sort of hobbyist or lifestyle style courses. I mean, not necessarily, there are courses on, as you say, on Skillshare. And think if aganda even on BBC Maestro about business in some ways, but none of these are dedicated career content plays, you know, libraries, which is an interesting choice. I hope it works. I hope it works. You know, we look back at the last few years, even back to iTunes, remember, iTunes, you like there have been a few attempts for places that are already doing entertainment, to sort of brands into education and to sort of edutainment style education. And they so far, none of them have quite cracked the code yet. I mean, you know, Apple, I kind of used it a long time ago, there was some interesting stuff there. We've seen Google start to make YouTube up being allowed to people can make courses on YouTube and it through their sort of playlists there, we've seen meta, play around and do some sort of tests with the ability to create courses on Facebook Live, there have been a few attempts to sort of start to blur those lines and say, hey, the place where you already are because you're on social media, or because you're listening to your music and podcasts on Spotify. You know, that would be a great place to learn as well. And I think to your point about like it appearing next to the playlist I think there's a belief that hey, people want to learn and if you put it right next to things are already doing they want to do it. I hope it's true.
Michelle Cho:Yeah. Or maybe it's just a distraction. Right or exactly yeah.
Alexander Sarlin:I mean, people do learn from what they're doing on Spotify sometimes Right? They'll be listening to their to Lex Redman are listening to you know, how I built this. And they're, they think of themselves as learning in a sort of casual way. But that said, it's not sort of labeled. It's not labeled as learning. It's sort of varying. formal learning and I feel like things that aren't labeled as formal learning when they sit next to informal learning, it hasn't quite worked yet doesn't mean that this won't work. But it hasn't worked, right.
Michelle Cho:I haven't seen the tech product within Spotify, but you just made a good point if it's next to something that inspires you. So I mean, a huge part of our work is you can't have somebody do something that's hard or laborious or boring unless you inspire and motivate them first. Yes. Right. So you said if you watched how I built this the podcast, or let's say you even watched listen to Esther pearls, you know, I think she does, like some kind of marriage counseling. Yeah. If that inspires you to do a class and I don't I haven't seen the classes on it. But you're right. I think it has to sit next to something that already that inspired them through the podcast. I forgot about that. They have podcasts because I actually do listen to a lot of Spotify podcasts. But not just maybe the music won't inspire. But the podcast will write. Because sometimes I do like when I listen to a podcast, I'm like, I'm going to learn that skill. And I put in my notes and then put it on my task list. And yeah, sometimes I do it. Sometimes I don't. But I mean, yeah, I think it needs to be maybe somehow connected to inspiration. Yeah, podcast inspiration can imagine
Alexander Sarlin:a world in which because they have music classes. So I can imagine a world in which, you know, you're listening to heavy metal and guitarist, and it's like, by the way, here's a class about, about heavy metal, you know about guitar, even with that kind of like pretty natural transition. I just wonder if that's how we're sort of our brains are wired to think that it's like, oh, I'm doing something, you know, I'm doing something because it's fun for me. You know what, while I'm here, maybe I'll really dive in and learn about it to happen. See the workout. And I think it's possible, just from like a user experience product standpoint, it's possible. We've seen some of the biggest companies in the world, try it and fail. And I'm just like, I hope it works. Let me put it that way. I hope it works. It would be great. I think great for ad tech, obviously, these are ad tech companies that are partnering with. And there are a lot more where that came from. So I love the idea of it. But I don't know I'm a little skeptical. Maybe it's just been burned on this one before I remember my Coursera they made a deal to put or they I don't know if they actually made this or not. But they were going to put Coursera courses on airplanes. They did end up making deals like some deals like that, where you they put like LinkedIn learning courses on airplanes, and I remember Yeah, what that guy like, it makes sense. In theory, somebody is stuck in a seat in theory, but like, I think people when they're stuck in a seat on an airplane are one of the trashiest like, for me, at least the guiltiest pleasure thing you're like, I don't know how many people see it as a time for I agree. Richmond,
Michelle Cho:I agree. I've never taken a course or a class on a flight and I fly a lot. If I'm not working, I'm definitely watching some show. Or a movie. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, Spotify must have behavioral psychologists on staff to figure out, because if somebody can crack that motivational, like, you know, motivating people to learn more, that would be awesome. I mean, yeah, building that desire to constantly learn. I don't know if somebody's going to crack that. But let's see, they're gonna have a lot of data and analytics, oh, yeah, of like, how people find out about it, how many minutes they're utilizing it. So I'm looking forward to what kind of data that they collect for that
Alexander Sarlin:I am too, and I hope that they can put their their expertise in user experience and in various, you know, various aspects of commercial technology to use to crack the code I really am. So speaking of, you know, motivation to learn wherever you are, you know, let's talk a little bit about K 12. World, one set of reports that sort of came out this week. And there's an interesting synopsis of them, is basically saying that, you know, as we come out of the pandemic, and as we come out of folly out of the pandemic, and there's a real interest from parents, in choosing schools that are hybrid that have the option for students to be at home, you know, at least one day a week one of the polling polls here says that, you know, about half of parents would prefer their child learn from home at least one day a week. And of that 49 You know, 39 are talking about one to four days a week, it's a small number that want full time homeschooling, but like, these numbers are pretty high. It looks like parents are looking for new school options for their students. One says that 64% of parents, if they were looking for a new school would enroll him or her in a hybrid school. So there's a there's a real interest, I think growth and interest in that kind of hybrid type school system. What do you make of these kinds of survey results?
Michelle Cho:Did the article or the survey ever to ask why was it because pickup is like in the middle of the school day, right school pickup? Is it because of that or their students with their kids liked hybrid? Did they ask the reason why or
Alexander Sarlin:so some of what it's saying here is that parents are looking at hybrid learning favorably because it allows them increased time with their children, potentially, a more active role in children's education and increased flexibility to customize schooling. Those are the reasons cited in the article, but I don't but there's no percentages next to that. So I'm not sure that that's exact The the reasons cited in the surveys, but that's sort of what they're reading from it. I don't know if they know if they actually got the answers. And I think it's a great question. Is this logistical? Is it like, it's a real pain to drop the kids off and pick them up at school? Or is it hey, I really want to be more involved in education and have them home and be able to control it, you know, more one or two days a week? That's it's a very different rationale. Yeah,
Michelle Cho:I think the hybrid. Personally, for me, I would like hybrid just because I remember being so bored in high school in middle school. That's just me. But for the parent, that's interesting that they say that it allows them to be more integrated into their kids learning. Because you're right, if you think about it, besides parent teacher conferences, and rely on your kid to tell you what they learned, they don't really have that much interaction, they don't really, really know. So if it is one day a week that they're able to see, oh, this is what we're learning. And you're right, so much of parental engagement is important, right? If all the research says parental engagement, if so, if it does increase parental engagement, and sometimes I think parents think that they don't, they can't teach certain things. I mean, a lot of my friends are parents, and how much actually knowledge they have, from their work experience, their life experience, and even their friends experience that they've learned just through conversations. It could kind of like, inspire them to actually relay and like, pass on that, that education to their students. So I'm an optimist, right? I'm like, Yay for everything. But I mean, partially, I think it's logistical. But like, during COVID, a lot of mothers did not like full time online, right? Because I mean, a lot of them work from home during COVID. And then they had to also like, take care of their kids. And they're like, oh, my gosh, I'm going crazy. So I think that the hybrid if people are, if they're saying they like hybrid for those reasons, I do think that, you know, schools that's hard to make those types of changes, but you know, maybe do a pilot and see if it works. It's feasible.
Alexander Sarlin:And there have also been some surveys event educators really appreciating the ability to wow, yeah, sort of four days, they don't
Michelle Cho:want to do it all the time.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, they don't want to do it all the time. And there's also been some research that four day weeks don't work as well for actual education. So this, and you know, at post pandemic, the schools that had more hybrid learning actually had worse outcomes. So there's an interesting tension here between people sort of getting used to and wanting, you know, more time with their children, as you're saying, or more more insight into what kids are doing at school, more flexibility. And actually, you know, the efficacy of education and whether or not, you know, going to four days a week is going to make everybody 20% less effective in their progress. So, are you no less likely to be on grade level or all those things, it's a weird moment for this stuff. I'm excited by the fact that parents are more open to trying new kinds of education than I think they were in the past. I think that's good for. And, you know, once we all figure out how to actually get the kind of outcomes we need, which is a big gift, but we're all working on it, this could be a really interesting moment, because I think people are more willing to do changes, if you see what's happening with our work life, you know, more willing to do major lifestyle changes than I think they have in a long time. Because everybody's gotten this big taste of it. There are few other stories that I think we should touch on. And they I'm realizing they're all AI related. This was not on purpose. But that's like it's everywhere. You know, we are following the launch of LAUSD ed program, it just launched last week, it's very high profile, it's really about the ability of everybody in the whole system in one of the I think it's the second biggest school system in the country, to be able to access answers and access data. You know, from a central point, that's really interesting. We're all following that, we'll see what happens. We also saw in the higher ed space, we reported a few months back that the University of Michigan had sort of launched its own version of chat GPT, basically a sort of internal LLM that can be used with faculty and students and sort of private and owned within the university. And now we're seeing a number of other schools copy that model we just saw this week, University of California, Irvine launched their own version of a basically LM and GPT. They're all calling them jpgs. We have Harvard has its own GPT UC San Diego, again, in your neck of the woods in Southern California, Washington University. It's obviously something that schools are playing with, they're trying to figure out whether there's an option, given their intellectual capital, you know, to end their privacy of their data. In some ways to do this internally. There's also an accessibility and fairness issue equity issue there, because they're talking about how you know if some of their students are paying for premium chat TPT. And they have this huge advantage, and others are not and they're in the same class, then this is actually a problem. So they're trying to make sure that everybody has access to AI tools. Really interesting moment. What do you make of this strategy? Do you think that it's that schools are going to over the long term, each have their own LLM? Or was this just a sort of, let's try it before everything? It just becomes much more streamlined. And everybody uses the same few providers, which is what tends to happen in other tech fields. Yeah, I
Michelle Cho:like that it's a closed system. It's their own LLM. And I actually met, and I don't remember the name of the company of a guy who creates these GP teas, for K through 12 for school districts. And the usage is, and I can attest to this, like, for many things, you can see aggregate data, you can ask it questions, where are they dropping off, right, like attendance, all that stuff, because it's processing it so quickly. And so you can actually design interventions, like if we catch them at like seventh grade, and we put in like a career counseling session, then then, you know, it's all about data actually affecting the intervention, whether it be through a technology and a second intervention, or a counseling session intervention, or whatever it might be. Another thing that we're using it for it was creating writing grants, because so many school districts don't even apply for state, local or federal grants, because it's just so hard to write. And it takes so much time and they don't get paid to write that, right, they paid to teach. And they were using it for that like, because if you have to apply for like a IES grant or some type of Department of Ed grant, which there's tons of they can just fully be okay, what are their outcomes in the last three years for student attendance, right, and they can just like, get it within like, a few seconds. And now they can actually submit these grants. So I actually do think just as long as closed, private beginning, it's all about privacy, I do think that schools are going to adopt it more just for just expediency and efficiency. See,
Alexander Sarlin:same thinking could happen at the higher ed level as well, higher ed has a lot of intellectual property they want to protect, there are a lot of use cases, for higher ed, even though it's less controlled than a K 12 system where student data is so protected. You know, I think some of that same logic that's happening in K 12. Schools is also happening in higher ed, where they're saying, Well, if we get something from a commercial provider, like a Google Gemini or open AI, how much can we give it access to our outcomes data? Or our student personal data? Like? How do we know it's closed? How do we know it's not training on that data, the thing that I've seen start to happen, which I think is a is a harbinger of things to come, personally, is that some of these model companies are trying to make private instances for the corporate use case, right? Like if open AI wants to sell. And we've talked about this a little bit on the podcast, you know, open AI wants to sell to a TNT, right? And they need that same kind of logic, right, they also need to make sure that whatever data is being trained from inside at&t, or whatever outcomes, or whatever financial data or whatever employee data, all that data is private, and it can't be used to train a model that is then you know, out there for sprint to query. So this idea of like, MLMs, that are trained on the whole internet, but then only operate within a little bit of a walled garden, because of the use case is being tested right now in companies. And the question is, is that the model that will then happen at schools, which is what you're seeing with universities, in some ways, sort of I mean, universities are making their own but you could see a provider do it saying, hey, University of Michigan, like, I know, you're nervous about your data. But look, we run the banks, we do the the. So like, if you know, your data isn't any more sensitive than those, and we are so secure, and we're so encrypted, and we're so private, and nothing goes anywhere, like you can see them trying to eat into that. But that said, privacy is the key. Right? I mean, that's the reason this is happening.
Michelle Cho:I think that's a great point. If they see it in healthcare, especially with HIPAA, then I mean, they do see HIPAA and healthcare as like the kind of like gold standard for privacy exact. So yeah, education is always it's not going to be the first always just because you're dealing with people's, you know, young people under the age 18, or even even even college students. So I'm not saying healthcare. first mover, either, but yeah, if financial institutions and healthcare systems use it, yeah, education will definitely trust it more and believe that there actually it is a walled garden. Yeah.
Alexander Sarlin:So at that point, either some of these schools and universities will have already developed their own systems using the kind of, you know, vendor that you're talking about, or, you know, university making their own Harvard makes their own. Or they'll say, you know, what, if we keep using our own, we're going to fall way behind because these, these models are evolving so fast, nobody knows. I mean, this is all such strange times. It's exciting, though. A couple of other AI stories. Let's just go around the world. I want to know we want to get to our amazing guests, Betsy Corcoran from EdSurge and lead labs. One thing that caught my eye this week is sort of a PR release, but McGraw Hill classic edtech publisher is taking one of their core adaptive learning tools Alex a le Ks, it's sort of really well proven adaptive learning system that's been out for quite a while and they're introducing an AI based ALEKS program for math for younger students for K to three. That was a little bit of a surprise headline for me. I mean, we know that publishers are trying to figure out how to incorporate AI, but the idea that you know, one of the first things you would do All right, I think it's probably one of the one of the first things it's only been out for a couple years is for very early grades is surprising. For me. Math makes sense. And Alex makes sense, because it's already a really database system. But I was surprised that there was for such young students, I would have thought that that would be something that yeah, they would have been a few years out. So yeah, what do you make of that?
Michelle Cho:You said K to three. Yeah. So yeah, that's surprising. That was the first market that they were not the
Alexander Sarlin:first thing that McGraw Hill is doing. But I mean, it's first in that it's the first generation right? We, you know, we it's been 18. Since since this stuff launched. So they had they've had to been building this for a while. It's pretty early. They're doing it launching it for the 2025. school year. So yes, that's one of the first.
Michelle Cho:I mean, I would think, you know, when I was three, I wouldn't have known how to utilize it. Is it specifically for the student over the educator? It's for the
Alexander Sarlin:student? Oh, yeah. Customizable, Avatar mascots. Yeah, personalized learning paths for students. Definitely for the student, they must, like
Michelle Cho:I said, because young people from like, I don't know, very, very young age start utilizing, they know how to navigate an iPhone at like one and a half, two, like, That's so scary to me. But, but that's probably why they must have done the market research to see that these are early early adopters. They know how to utilize it, their brainwaves, their pathways have already been adept at that kind of user interface. So wow, that is shocked. I'm shocked, actually, that that is K through three example. I mean, I would be like maybe in middle school. But yeah,
Alexander Sarlin:I mean, maybe the thinking here is that the type of math that you're teaching is relatively contained at that age level. And then you have all this data from Alex, because Alex is an adaptive system. So it's already been, you know, reading data from students for a long time and adapting the you know, personalizing and adapting, that's sort of what they do. So maybe they looked around their product line. And they were like, well, this is a, this is something where we have a great data training set. And where the output is, is relatively, relatively simple. Maybe you find Yeah, I mean, we we've seen companies like ello, who we interviewed on the podcast, who are going for reading solutions, like there are other things in there in the reading space. But I don't know, for some reason this caught me a little off guard, I would have thought that you'd hear announcements about AI at the high school level that said, I'm sure this is not regular, open generative AI, they're not asking kindergarteners to, you know, type into a interface and ask about math questions. But it is really, it's an interesting also, probably all the publishers have to put AI in all their releases, just you know, to stay. There's that too. But the combination of taking an adaptive program and instilling AI into it, and then putting it here, and it's very interesting. Another one that came out this week was that go student, which is a European unicorn out of Austria, it has become profitable, which is actually very interesting, because student had had a hit a lot of skids this year had some really bad press, there was some concern about the company, and they are now announcing that they're actually growing and doing well. And you know, the business is back on track. So good for them. And that's maybe good for the European ecosystem, because there aren't that many European unicorns. Right.
Michelle Cho:Did it credit? Was there a specific thing that happened in the last 12 months? Yeah, that's a
Alexander Sarlin:great question. So what the CEO of go student is accrediting to is after, you know, major losses in 2021 and 2022, because of huge cash burn and lots of lots of pay for ill they went to into this quote unquote, crazy hyper scaling phase in the last three years, that basically, you know, really turned things around. They changed their burn rate, it says they've reduced their burn rate by 70%. In 2023. Oh, wow. Okay. And did some layoffs, that a third round of layoffs, I think there was a feeling of like, probably the same thing we've been seeing, you know, across the board a lot of it is right now sort of that move from from growth at all costs to profitability at all costs. And yeah, it's Yeah, I mean, no more of the parties that they were getting in trouble for there was sort of a rumor mill stuff around go student about it being a little bit of like a over the top spending their money, like sort of party atmosphere not and the business not really working a little like almost like a like a mini mini mini meeting like we work style thing. But they've they've really tightened everything up. They Yeah, they really interesting, it's a tutoring company. And they also acquired a physical Learning Center set of physical learning centers in 2022. In Germany, so they're also sort of doubling down on their hybrid learning, which is a strategy we've wondered about. They're very intuitive, a lot of Indian add texture into it, but we'll see if it lands, obviously, the parents seem to want Hybrid Hybrid solutions. So maybe maybe hybrid really is the right way. I've been I've been skeptical about at tech companies that are that are going into brick and mortar but you know, it seems to be working really well for them. So that for them, right.
Michelle Cho:Well, hopefully that will signal that, you know, it would actually bring more venture capital into the had tech ecosystem that maybe it wasn't. It's not that tech companies are not revenue generators because of not enough demand or whatever integration was school systems, maybe a lot of it was just like hyped during COVID. And then you're right, they were kind of like, they weren't being economical with their, with their funds, and stuff. So I hope it actually does make it a little better for the tech venture capital world like that. Because I know capital is scarce. And people are being extremely economical with their investments right now, because of what happened the overcorrection. But it seems like a lot of companies are just becoming more efficient. So you know, there would be more trust from the venture capital community to the ed tech and tech companies,
Alexander Sarlin:I realized, good. I hope this isn't one point in that direction, right. I mean, yeah, there have been some real embarrassments recently from the tech field. But I think this is good student turned itself around from a potential embarrassment to something that's actually, you know, financial success, at least so far, it's really, really good for that. It's really exciting. It's just a couple more, just quick, quick, quick headlines, because I know we're running a little low on time here, we talked about her teachers aren't getting the AI training they need. That was an interesting one. AI is coming to standardized testing, you know, we've talked about how the LSAT really is starting to incorporate this. But now the PISA exam, which is the International exam across the world that is sort of used to benchmark, you know, whole country's education systems against each other is starting to experiment with AI tasks and AI scoring. Makes sense. But I've been surprised that, you know, it's interesting, when you look at Alex, and you look at the PISA exam, both embracing AI, there's a common thread there, which is that these are both programs that have been exceedingly data driven for a long time, right? They have really good data, they've cut it really well and used it for all sorts of things for a long time. And I think maybe that is a really good precondition for quickly incorporating
Michelle Cho:Yeah, I agree. I agree. When you have just, you know, dataset, you're already you have a ton of data, then you know, the transition to adding AI is not too much of a huge lift. So I think you're right about that. When you say it's been integrated into like the PISA and like that standardized tests, what do you mean not for the test taking or for the grading or for which part? So
Alexander Sarlin:one of the use cases they're talking about is AI for scoring, which makes total sense. But one of the other ones, this is all Andreas Schleicher very famous education person who has been running the pizza for a long time. This is an intriguing one, they said they're talking about incorporating tasks, where they're going to track how the student approached the assignment using AI to get a sense of how they think critically, or how they think creatively. So it's sort of like that self assessment kind of thing. It'd be like, Hey, can you do this open ended thing. And then as the student works through it, whether that's, you know, in speech or in text, or I don't know, maybe drag and drop on a computer, it actually figures out if how, you know, it tries to read into their actions and actually assess them on Wow approach. That's what they're sort of playing with. Pretty interesting.
Michelle Cho:That is interesting. Yeah. Because you're right, like, just just like a question. And the answer is not enough to evaluate all of the other skills that they have, because it's either right or wrong. Right. So that is so interesting. I'm gonna definitely follow the development of that.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah. And the PISA exam compares countries, but it's also not used for benchmarking. So it's really interesting. It's like, it's I mean, it's used for benchmarking for countries, but not for schools or particular groups, or students or anything like that. So they seem like they're playing with some really interesting ideas about how to use AI in this AI to measure things that weren't able to be measured on a standardized test in the past. Let's put it that way. Yeah,
Michelle Cho:I'd be curious to see if that actually makes standardized tests more equitable, right? Because they say they're very, like biased and stuff like that. So if you're actually tracking how people think, and our creative, some more soft skills, then it's not just what's the right answer? What's you know, right. That's interesting. Yeah, that can actually save the standardized test.
Alexander Sarlin:It's funny, I think, you know, standardized tests, ETs and College Board and the OECD, which administers Pisa, I think we're traditionally considered very, like laggards like they're the people who don't change ACTA. You know, they do the same thing every year, because they don't have to change. And I think in the last few years, they've changed. They've actually embraced new technology, they're doing some surprising and pretty big swing thing. So it's an unusual place to look for innovation in the standardized testing group. But you know what? Yeah, that's coming. I think that's about it. You know, there's a couple of little mini headlines. A smart school in Poland raised some money for AI Test Prep. And there was an acquisition in Britain and in the UK with a company called teacher Matic which is about AI tools for education. You know, an Irish group got about $10 million to reduce the skills gap, which I know is something you're passionate about with your career focus and cornerstone, which is one of the very biggest l&d companies just acquired. at a company called tailspin, which actually does immersive training, that's one of the. So that is a intriguing purchase. And we have Josh Burson, who's sort of the guru of all things. l&d Having an interesting article about how you know, AI and VR and xr have the potential to really be a whole new way to do corporate training. So interesting stuff happening in all corners of the tech universe. Yeah,
Michelle Cho:that's very interesting. I would love to, like, ask you in future podcasts, to maybe integrate what's going on in adult education. So that's a whole new ecosystem I've only recently been part of and they are going towards digital tools. The US Department of Education, we actually won. We're the grand prize winner of the US Department of Education future finder challenge, which is for career navigation, digital career navigation for adult learners. And I find a lot of edtech goes higher ed K through 12. It kind of skips adult education, and it's actually 10s of millions of people. And workforce, because of the labor shortages is looking to adult as an adult learners. So I'd love to hear that on your podcast, too.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, absolutely. We've talked to a few entrepreneurs who are in that space. And I'd love to talk to more because I think it is a crazy, exciting space, especially as you mentioned earlier on, this is a time when we need to do lifelong learning when you absolutely can't sit on your laurels and just expect to stay in any job. Like they say the shelf life of skills now is like four years, you know, people constantly have to be learning, which means that adult learning is just has to happen. And it can happen in the corporation. It can happen at the college level, it can happen at the casual level or through things like Spotify classes, but it's a really nuts, a space and that skills. There's a lot to talk about there. Well, thanks so much. Awesome. Yeah, I think with that, let's move to our deep dive guest Betsy Corcoran, Edtech legend, founder of EdSurge, and Lede Labs. For our deep dive this week, we have a very special guest and absolute ed tech legend. Betsy Corcoran, CEO and founder of Lede Labs and the founder of EdSurge. Everybody's favorite edtech media outlet. So great to have you here, Betsy.
Betsy Corcoran:Thank you so much, Alex, I'm thrilled to be here. I think the work that you and Ben and the whole group are doing is amazing. And I'm honored to be here. Thank you. Well,
Alexander Sarlin:I'm honored to hear you say that because at search was very much our inspiration in beginning this. So first off, let's talk a little bit about what you've been doing recently, with lead labs and with AI Labs is an education consulting firm and you have really been leading into the artificial intelligence space, can you update us on what you've been doing?
Betsy Corcoran:I'd be happy to. First I should say that, you know, my roots were as a science and technology journalist. And so this is dating myself, but I started writing about AI. Let's just say probably while you were still in diapers or something horrible like that a really long time ago. So in some ways, it's been really exciting for me to see this iteration of the AI boom, lead Labs has been a consultancy with some amazing rock star folks that I have just adored working with and have learned so much for them over time. The other thing that I'm doing is I'm also chairing now the board of detec, which is a nonprofit high school charter high school here in San Mateo County, has focused on design thinking. And along with my colleagues at detec. And the San Mateo County of education. We just announced this morning that we're running a conference for school leaders in San Mateo County that includes 200 schools, all about artificial intelligence. So yeah, I'm totally leaning in. It's an exciting, terrifying, and, you know, exhilarating time to be thinking about what this means for learning and what's gonna mean for students what it's going to mean for teachers.
Michelle Cho:Thanks, Betsy. You know, I would love to learn about what you've been learning in the landscape and education, a couple of questions. Just maybe something general, what ways do you believe AI is revolutionizing the educational landscape specifically in the classroom, and not so much homework or anything like that, but in the classroom, deployed by the teachers?
Betsy Corcoran:That's a great starting point, Michelle. So thanks. The first thing that we have to realize is that this is such an early stage for the technology. We have historically seen that education's given technology a chance to gel before it really embraces it wholeheartedly. If you're a critic, you could say gosh, education usually awaits a decade or so. Well, I'd like to say that we usually do I'd have to wait until the thing is gelled and the standards have settled down. But not this time. Right now education, as Sam Altman of open AI has told us is one of the foremost places that's trying to figure out AI. So we're in the midst of crazy stuff. So I'm gonna sell to your question, which is what are people using the classroom right now? Everything, anything who knows what. And in some ways, this is the hugely messy, experimental moment with the technology, and what it will look like, honestly, even in two years will be totally different. So number one, the first thing is to any educator. Don't feel badly about it. This is a time of experimentation. It's okay. It's messy. This is out in the mud pits man, we're just kind of hacking our way through it. And to the company's companies are also in an experimental phase. We're certainly seeing a lot of focus on tutoring programs, AI tutoring programs, and we can, we could rattle off the names of many companies that are talking about AI tutors. I think it's also instructive, though, to ask a question, which is this. Ai tutors are supposed to make learning easy. Cars made it very easy for us to travel. You didn't have to exert any force or muscle. So the question is, how are we going to use AI tutors in a way that won't turn us into intellectual couch potatoes. Dan Meyer, who writes a wonderful blog on mathematics had a great point this morning, where he talked about the role of entertaining teachers, people who were very entertaining as lecturers versus people who are really interested in the students and want to know what they're bringing to the problems and engage them in thinking about how do I break that problem apart? Those are really important questions in an age of AI. So I think the challenge that we'll all have is even if we create great tutors, which is awesome. Let's not turn into intellectual couch potatoes. Yeah,
Alexander Sarlin:that's a great phrase. You know, we talked in the show today about how a new study came out and saying that, you know, seven out of 10, teachers are saying that they have received absolutely no professional development on AI and only 5% are getting, you know, regular PD on it. I guess my question for you, based on what you're saying is, is that actually not such a bad thing? Given that we're in this crazy experimental phase? And you know, anything you're learning right now about how to use AI in the classroom is likely to be obsolete in six months to a year? Or do you feel like teachers are being left out of the conversation because they're not getting the chance to get their hands dirty? And do this sort of muddy, messy experimental period? Absolutely.
Betsy Corcoran:The second, I think teachers really deserve an opportunity and a chance to get really muddy to roll up their sleeves and try it. We have historically thought of PD professional development as quite frankly, a sit and get moment you come I lecture you learn. We know how well that works in the classroom. Honestly, it doesn't work with teachers any better than it works with seven year olds. Right? So let's not define PD that way, but the 70% of teachers who say, Hey, I could use some support here. Tell me a little bit about what's going on? Yeah, absolutely. Those folks should be getting a lot more support. That's exactly why we're running this conference with the County of San Mateo, in our area, because quite frankly, people say, Oh, you live in Silicon Valley's while your teachers are totally up to speed on AI. Right. And our teachers say, yeah, so absolutely. I think every county, every district should be looking for ways to give their teachers an opportunity to play, explore, be safe, to be able to ask questions, all those things that go with playing, to begin to get a sense of what is this force that's coming into our lives?
Michelle Cho:That sounds great. You know what, that is so exciting, because I know with other technology and Ed Tech, it did take 10 years, right? And I think COVID expedited the adoption of technology in the classroom, because you just had to write or what about where's AI most penetrating the school system? Is it most the administrators utilizing it for maybe figuring out interventions? Or is it teaching? Is it like pedagogy? Where do you see the adoption happening faster? Yeah.
Betsy Corcoran:So let's think about the different buckets where AI will have a role. There's an administrative level, and we were talking about all of those PETA tasks, right? Do I need to define PETA? These days? You know, all of those things you don't really want to do, right? Oh,
Alexander Sarlin:right. You Got it? Yes.
Betsy Corcoran:So there is a big role for AI in administrative tasks that are repetitive, and particularly those that are weirdly repetitive, right, that form that you only have to send out once every six months to parents, or those routine things that happen just infrequently enough that you forget how to do it from the last time, but you have to redo it, right? Oh, my gosh, AI is perfect for kind of some of those sorts of things. So yes, we'll see it in there. We're talking a lot about what the role of AI should be in curriculum development. And I confess that I still have mixed feelings on this. I think there are many teachers who actually relish the opportunity to create curriculum, it's a very creative process. On the other hand, it takes a lot of time to. So what role should aI have in supporting efforts to build really interesting curriculum? And without taking away some of that beauty, that sense of I'm being very creative, and how I put things together? There's a whole collection of administrative things that teachers have to do grading papers, etc. Once again, it'll be an interesting balance. I don't think there are black and white answers here. Yes, some grading should absolutely be done by an AI and being able to quickly give feedback on how to write or on where you went wrong and your math problem. Is that helpful? Absolutely. On the other hand, engaging in these things, being able to talk to your students about where they're at is actually also a part of teaching. So again, finding a balance between those two things. And then the final element is okay, and so what do the students needed there? And do they need AI tutors? What are some of those tools that should be developed? So once again, I just want to stress we're at such an early stage of technology development back in again, I'll date myself, I apologize. But that's the way it goes. Back in 1996, John Doerr, who was then head of Kleiner Perkins, very famous venture capital firm said to me, Betsy, the internet is underrated. And I thought, What a ridiculous thing to say, John, because we're talking about the internet all the time. And that was 1996. Well, he was right. I'll go on record as saying, Yep. John, you were totally right about that. It was underrated. impact on the world was underrated. But that was 27 years ago, almost 30 years ago. So when you think about the amount of change that's gone on, in the last 30 years, with just the internet, the changes that we'll see with AI will be I think, even more dramatic. Yeah,
Alexander Sarlin:it's really fun to hear you talk about this, because of your amazing, you know, 30,000 foot view of this field, you've covered it for a long time. I mean, you have a credible case to be made that you basically coined the term ad tech that in search, or at least popularized the term itself, which is pretty amazing. And, you know, one thing that I really wanted, you know, I know that you mentioned that your teachers in Silicon Valley aren't necessarily, you know, cutting edge tech, but I know that you are definitely cutting edge tech. I know you were speaking at the NVIDIA conference just recently, which is about as cutting edge as it gets. And my final question for you, and this is the biggie, but, you know, let's look ahead, let's do our sort of 2024 predictions, or maybe even our, you know, next two or three years predictions, you are deep in this space. I know you're saying it's messy, and nobody really knows. But given that, it would, let's assume that, what do you expect to see in the, you know, coming crash between AI and education, I say crash, it might be a good or a bad thing. I think it's gonna be good. But like, what do you expect to see that we might not see coming yet?
Betsy Corcoran:Oh, boy, that's such an easy question, Alex. Good answer. The answer is 42. And it always will be. Look, we have been saying for decades, longer than I've been involved in education. And probably, you know, since the very earliest days, that education is about helping kids helping our children, figure out how to have rich, fulfilling lives, right. That's ultimately the big goal of education. And the challenge that we have with these tools is always about how do we make sure that we're using the tools to support that overall goal, not just getting so enthralled with the tool itself that we, we forget. And it's hard, it's hard. My father was an engineer, and he always had a little mimeographed picture in his workshop of you know, a guy and In a swamp, and it said, you know, when you're up to your ass and alligators, it's hard to remember that your job was just to to clear the swamp. So I think we've got to be careful not to get distracted by all of the alligators. If this age of AI helps us understand how to bring the whole concept of mastery of education, of asking questions of recognizing that we are trying to excite kids about thinking, then it will be amazing. Yeah, if we get to sort of caught up with the alligators, it'll be a bit of a slog. So I guess that's my hope, or prayer or wish for this era, which is that we stay focused on what we are trying to accomplish, which is building a great generation of kids. Yeah, I
Alexander Sarlin:mean, I love that idea of zooming all the way out and saying, what is the real purpose of education anyway, and maybe, you know, we're seeing all of these AI tools right now that replicate, as you say, you know, the painful parts of the classroom, all the parent teacher conferences, and the tutoring and the math and the work, there's worksheets that AI literally, but maybe a year, or two or three from now, we'll actually be able to zoom out and really think about the core purpose of education and maybe not be as caught up in all the rituals, and you know, detritus of education, all the notebooks and everything, because they will do all the small work for us, and hopefully not make us into couch potato bethey Corcoran, this is such an interesting conversation. We you're invited back anytime, as always, truly an inspiration to all of us here EdTech insiders.
Betsy Corcoran:Thank you, Alex. Thank you, Michelle. And Michelle, I'm really happy to be here on your debut as podcaster here, so yeah, you and yeah, let's keep the conversation going. And for any folks who are interested in this event that we're going to have here and Bumble little San Mateo County, give me a shout. drop me a note on LinkedIn. I
Alexander Sarlin:love San Mateo. Yeah, the peninsula. Amazing, amazing place. Thank you so much, Betsy. You're welcome back anytime. Please do come back. Thank
Betsy Corcoran:Thank you both.
Michelle Cho:Thanks.
Alexander Sarlin:Thanks for listening to this episode of Edtech Insiders. If you liked the podcast, remember to rate it and share it with others in the edtech community. For those who want even more edtech insider subscribe to the free edtech insiders newsletter on substack.