Heather Shen is the CPO and co-founder of Praxis Labs. As graduate students at Stanford, Shen and classmate Elise Smith, 30, bonded over their mutual interest in helping companies and institutions do a better job at diversity and inclusion training. They came up with the idea for Praxis Labs, a startup that can deliver diversity training using either VR headsets, mobile phones, laptops or desktops. Heather is a member of the Forbes 30 Under 30 List for Education. Heather has also worked as a management consultant, an electrical engineer for Microsoft’s Hololens, and in Crew Systems at NASA. Heather holds a Master’s of Electrical Engineering from Stanford University.
Mekayla Castro is the Head of Curriculum at Praxis Labs, where she drives curriculum and content development and partners with the product team to create immersive experiences and impactful learning tools and pathways. Mekayla was formerly a Senior Behavioral Scientist and Head of Learning Experience Design at Edtech Unicorn BetterUp, which provides coaching services to enterprise clients, and was the Director of Global Leadership and Learning at American Express. Mekayla earned her Ph.D in Social-Organizational Psychology from Teachers College Columbia University.
Heather Shen is the CPO and co-founder of Praxis Labs. As graduate students at Stanford, Shen and classmate Elise Smith, 30, bonded over their mutual interest in helping companies and institutions do a better job at diversity and inclusion training. They came up with the idea for Praxis Labs, a startup that can deliver diversity training using either VR headsets, mobile phones, laptops or desktops. Heather is a member of the Forbes 30 Under 30 List for Education. Heather has also worked as a management consultant, an electrical engineer for Microsoft’s Hololens, and in Crew Systems at NASA. Heather holds a Master’s of Electrical Engineering from Stanford University.
Mekayla Castro is the Head of Curriculum at Praxis Labs, where she drives curriculum and content development and partners with the product team to create immersive experiences and impactful learning tools and pathways. Mekayla was formerly a Senior Behavioral Scientist and Head of Learning Experience Design at Edtech Unicorn BetterUp, which provides coaching services to enterprise clients, and was the Director of Global Leadership and Learning at American Express. Mekayla earned her Ph.D in Social-Organizational Psychology from Teachers College Columbia University.
Welcome to Season Two of edtech insiders, where we talk to the most interesting thought leaders, founders, entrepreneurs, educators and investors, driving the future of education technology. I'm your host, Alex Sarlin, an edtech veteran with over 10 years of experience at top tech companies. Heather Shen is the CEO and co founder of Praxis labs, as graduate students at Stanford Shen and her classmate Elise Smith bonded over their mutual interest in helping companies and institutions do a better job at diversity and inclusion training. They came up with the idea for Praxis labs, a startup that can deliver diversity training using VR headsets, mobile phones, laptops or desktops. Heather is a member of the Forbes 30 under 30 list for education, and she's worked as a management consultant, an electrical engineer for Microsoft HoloLens. And for NASA, Heather holds a Master's of electrical engineering from Stanford University. Makayla Castro is the head of curriculum at Praxis labs, where she drives curriculum content development, and partners with a product team to create immersive experiences and impactful learning tools and pathways. Mekayla was formerly a senior behavioral scientist and head of learning experience design at a tech unicorn better up, which provides coaching services to enterprise clients. She was also the Director of Global Leadership and Learning at American Express. Mekayla earned her PhD in Social Organizational Psychology from Teachers College, Columbia, Heather shin and Mekalya Castro. Welcome to EdTech. Insiders.
Heather Shen:Thank you so much. It's so good to be here. Yes, thank you
Alexander Sarlin:two both have really interesting backgrounds that brought you into alignment at Praxis labs, where I want to start with you, you have a background in electrical engineering. Really interesting. I don't know if we've ever had a guest like that on the show. What made you decide to turn that skill set towards the service of education, and training? And how does that work to to support your work and practice labs?
Heather Shen:Well, when I talk about practice, I always like to start with, like, why is it so important to me? Why am I drawn to this work in the first place? And for me, all of that starts with my family how I grew up. So both of my parents are immigrants. They immigrated from China land in Rhode Island, it's where I grew up, it's what I consider my childhood home. And I grew up in one of the suburbs of Rhode Island, it's a pretty homogenous area, I was one of the very few just Asian people around. And you know, I think what my parents really recognize that and saw that I was struggling a little bit to understand how I fit in what my sense of culture and what growing up really looks like, in a society that kind of like, didn't really look like me. So I like to share that I consider my mom, one of my first ei teachers, diversity, equity inclusion teachers, she would come into my elementary school classrooms all the way up to high school to share more about Chinese background and heritage. And that was really my first experience with perspective taking, sharing across cultural differences. It's one that I've taken with me through all of my personal and professional life. And so when I was considering, like, Okay, what do I want to do with my own passions, my own interests, I was really drawn to this idea about technology as a way to scale that. It's a way that we can change how we work and communicate with one another. So I ended up going to Stanford, studied electrical engineering, as you mentioned, and got really inspired by the innovation that was happening in the immersive learning space. You know, I worked at NASA where I was researching augmented reality as a way to train pilots to take off inland so really saw it as kind of like a new training mechanism. The outcomes were so different from traditional just like read about it, trainings, or like practicing a simulator trainings and augmented reality really put the pilots in that mindset and mindshare. And then I moved to Microsoft, where I was working on their HoloLens, which is an augmented reality headset. And at the time, they were also considering what is the enterprise strategy or enterprise application of augmented reality? And they were saying, okay, it can be used in like construction and plumbing, and all of these different fields that, you know, I previously was like, Okay, it's can be used beyond just gaming or training, and it has this enterprise application. And so I actually went back to school at Stanford, I got my master's there again, and electrical engineering. I met Elise, who is my co founder and CEO at praxis, who was coming in with her own passions, her own lived experiences. And you know, she had previously done work at this dance For a Virtual Human Interaction Lab with Jeremy Bailenson, who was one of the preeminent researchers about how to use virtual reality, to build empathy, and the research that was coming out of the lab was so compelling. It was supported by my own experiences with augmented reality as a training mechanism, as as well as like kind of the, the rate of change of the hardware and software that was enabling it. And so practices really came at this intersection of, you know, my passion for di work, and the recognition that mixed reality and immersive learning is such a new and exciting space.
Alexander Sarlin:That's a phenomenal answer i It makes a lot of sense. You've brought together your your lived experiences with diversity, equity and inclusion with your electrical engineering background, which led you right into the world of VR and VR training with NASA of all places. And then with the HoloLens. It's a really interesting background, I think it makes you very uniquely qualified, and uniquely suited to do this really fascinating work of Praxis labs, okay. Well, I want to turn to you, you have a background in corporate learning, you've worked at American Express at better up, which is an ad tech coaching platform, what got you into the Praxis lab world and what gets you most excited about Praxis labs approach to training and development?
Mekalya Castro:Yeah, so for me, it's really grounded in our purpose and what we're here to do as a company. So we're striving to make workplaces more equitable, as well as society more equitable and inclusive. And so when it comes to training and development within the diversity, equity, inclusion space, there's a long history, but it's not all that positive or all that encouraging. So organizations have tended to take an event driven, or a one time approach focused on compliance. I think that's changing a little bit over the years. But there's also this emphasis on understanding concepts versus a focus on skill development. So as a result, we don't have a ton of evidence that dei programming really works to change hearts and minds, let alone behaviors. So when we think about our work, where our approach is different in a few different ways. So first, the concept of empathy is so important to our work. And it shows up in a couple of different ways. So one, we use empathetic design. And that means that we consider the cognitive and emotional states and needs of our learners so that learners feel engaged and empowered. They're also given the freedom within this safe container to fail and explore what it's like to be on their own dei journey. And then we also use empathy as a means of developing that quality within learners. So we're building empathy within learners through this idea of perspective taking scenarios that we've created. So learners have the opportunity to step into the shoes of someone who's experiencing inequity, or someone who is a bystander, and has the opportunity to intervene. And then all of this is done in a really rich, immersive environment. So another thing that we do is, while our approach does target the individual, the content of our learning journeys really takes this systemic issues view. So we know that that is so important, and at the core of organizational barriers to inequity. So we look at things like hiring practices, performance, evaluation procedures, and unequal access to social networks. And this gives learners an opportunity to be exposed to some of these more systemic things that might be at play within their organization. And then another thing that we do is we're committed to really creating a wraparound experience for our learners so that they can actually practice more inclusive behaviors. We're also big on social learning by creating opportunities for learners to be in reflective dialogue with their colleagues. So and just kind of bringing us all together, I think what most excites me is this end to end experience that we're creating, and how over time, we'll have that opportunity to further and better insights within our client organizations and better understand how our organization is being leveraged for not just individual change, but also organization wide transformation. That's fascinating.
Alexander Sarlin:I think going from that, as you say, event driven one time only, you know, a trainer drops in and gives it afternoon lesson or a set of exercises about dei and then that's it, there's no follow up, there's no way to see what changed for any individual let alone the organization to an ongoing approach is the holy grail of sort of instructional design in the corporate world I'd write the classic Kirkpatrick model about you know, you got to follow and see what actually changed because of the the training instead of just whether people liked it or if they walk away feeling like they got something it feels like practices right at the forefront of that. So I'm sure our listeners are wondering exactly what practices you've given some some of the shape of it, but let's go right out. And Heather, I want to ask you, you know, practice labs describes itself as an immersive learning development company driving workplace equity and and inclusion outcomes. Let's take this apart. Let's start with the immersive part. You've mentioned that the Stanford lab, you've mentioned working with NASA with the HoloLens. Tell us about what it's like for in practice lab, how do you use virtual reality in your training?
Heather Shen:Yeah, I think it's really exciting because immersive learning is so early that I think, you know, almost everyone out there is defining it differently. But to us immersive learning can mean anything and spans everything from virtual reality, VR to mixed reality, Mr. Augmented reality 360 degree video, it's also experiential learning. And like, in some ways, it could also be considered like role playing. So it's a really big spectrum. But for us, we deploy immersive experiences with high quality, VR headsets, virtual reality headsets, as well as through a web browser. And all of our immersive experiences are based on perspective taking, so going and kind of experiencing a short piece of, of someone's life through their eyes. And, you know, regardless of the entry point, immersive learning really works. Similarly, by leveraging the power of presence, which is kind of like a term in experiential learning. It means that it allows users to experience a scenario from many sensory angles. In our experiences, we emphasize presence by giving the learner or the user the ability to make different decisions, those decisions that you make, actually change the outcomes of your experience, you're asked to speak out loud, as you would in the moment to respond to something you're practicing kind of what would you do in a moment or incidence of bias, really thinking about both what it might feel like for the person who was placed in that incident of bias, but also what you could do as a bystander or even a perpetrator to take responsibility for your actions. So it's kind of all these different angles that give the individual learner, this idea of presence and agency within the experience. And you know, more broadly, I think, immersion in kind of immersive learning can mean how do we leverage dei work and behavior change, not just in workplaces, but also in every day, you know, as we think about the application of an immersive training, hopefully, it's not something that you can turn on and off for like a one hour session is truly something that we want people to think about and integrate into their everyday lives versus just their work lives.
Alexander Sarlin:I love the sort of focus on perspective taking in this this idea of presence. For a, somebody working in a practice labs, you work with a lot of really amazing companies, it would be they go into an experience. And they actually see what it's like from one of the perspectives or even multiple perspectives to be in a situation that has a dei component, whether you mentioned might be from the perpetrator, it might be a bystander, it might be a somebody who's received on the receiving end of a microaggression. And you actually get to practice that be inside it feel like it's simulated in a really realistic way. And really, really learn from that and actually respond in real time. Really interesting use of VR. So so the other side of this equation is about workplace Equity and Inclusion outcomes. And Mikayla, I want to I want to ask you about that, you know, as the head of curriculum, what are some of the equity and inclusion outcomes you are trying to achieve within these companies? And how do you work with your clients to measure them? You mentioned sort of individual and organizational change? What are the outcomes? How do you tell if something's really working?
Mekalya Castro:Yeah, so it's exactly that we're looking at and thinking about outcomes on two different levels. So we're thinking about it at the individual level, as well as the organizational level. And so when we think about the individual, we're focused on three different questions are learners engaging our learners growing, and our learners changing their behaviors. And so we start with engagement, because even though we don't necessarily consider it the ultimate outcome, it's table stakes in terms of adoption. And we know it's necessary for the ultimate outcomes we're looking to drive. And the more people that we can get engaged on our platform, the more reach that we can have, and the more impact that we can have. So we do look at engagement and start there. And then from there, we start to look at whether learners are growing. And so we look at that in a couple of different ways. First, we're capturing learners increase in their level of empathy for the experiences of others. We know that we're facilitating empathy because we're putting people into the shoes of another person and affording them that opportunity to engage in perspective taking in an immersive and visceral way. And then there's another way that we're also looking at learner growth and that's related to an increase knowledge and awareness and learners ability to identify factors of inequity within their own organization. So in our modules, as I mentioned before, or we're introducing people to the systems, processes structures that might be in place within their organizations that are acting as those barriers to equity. So then learners can better understand the relevance to their own organization. And then a third way that we're interested in learner growth is about self efficacy. And getting closer to that behavior change in terms of confidence to take action in real life. So in efforts to change behavior, we know that people's sense of their ability to actually engage in goal attaining behaviors is critical. So we really think that that's an important outcome to track. And then specifically, we're just we're asking people about their level of confidence to take action that will make the organization more inclusive and more equitable. And then finally, we're interested in behavior change. And this is something that we're going to be exploring a lot further as we grow and evolve. But right now, what we're interested in is have learners really taken account of their learning by approaching situations differently, either in their work life or are outside of their work life, as Heather has mentioned. So that's the individual level. And then the organizational level, we're able to identify hotspots of potential inequity across a variety of factors through an assessment that we administer to our learners. So then, when organizations get that data, it informs their ongoing strategic efforts to affect positive change, because they're identifying where those barriers might exist, and where might they have opportunity for continued growth. So again, as our product looks to evolve and grow, we're thinking about additional outcomes that we know organizations will really care about, including things like engagement and belonging, we also know they care about reducing attrition. And then they're also interested in certain value drivers for their organization, whether that's something like managerial effectiveness or innovation. And then we provide a lot of this data in a dashboard for our customers. And so we're aggregating this data, and we're sharing it back to them through this dashboard, and continuously updating that dashboard to meet their needs. So it's a really popular feature of our product.
Alexander Sarlin:I can imagine I love that idea of hotspots of inequity, that you can you know that through your assessment system with multiple, you know, many different employees, you can actually surface up to an organization, where might therapy issues, you know, where might there be potential problems within the organization that you can use sort of can collate that the hive mind within a corporation or company to make people understand better how they can improve the organization over time, I'm sure that in and of itself is something that organizations are incredibly hungry for. And then of course, all the individual outcomes of behavior change, self efficacy, really powerful.
Mekalya Castro:And, you know, they're able to link up, you know, our data with their data, because they're also really collecting on their end, you know, a sense of what's happening in listening to their employees. And so, with this added value, they're able to try to triangulate data and really better understand what those hotspots are, and where they have opportunity to improve.
Alexander Sarlin:That's fantastic. So I want our listeners to really get a visceral sense of what what practice is like, what it's like, I have not been in one myself. So I'm really curious as well. So there are these pivotal experiences, their six to 12 month learning journeys, as you mentioned, with a new module released monthly or at a sort of added cadence. So, you know, people are experiencing these different scenarios, these different immersive simulations that build over time, until you're really understanding a whole lot about the diversity space. Maybe, Mikhail, I want to, you know, ask you, maybe you can just, you know, unpack one or two of these learning modules and actually explain that type of simulation, that type of situation that you're inviting your learners to experience?
Mekalya Castro:Yeah, sure. So I'll walk you through one of the stories that we have. But first, our modules come in three main parts. The first is pretty straightforward and simple. And that we provide a brief introduction to the module, we share a description of what the module is about, as well as the learning objectives so that the learner has a sense of what will be covered and what they can walk away with. And then they're guided to that immersive experience. So on one of our modules, they are taking on the experience of Diana, a woman who identifies as an autistic person, and in the opening scene, her colleagues surprise her with a birthday cake in seeing her happy birthday. Now for a lot of us that experience would be met with a sense of like pleasant surprise and joy. This is great. But for Diana, the sensory overload is really triggering, and she must find ways to soothe herself in that moment. So we get a glimpse of what it's really like to be her and in that situation, and then from there, we're transported to a work meeting where one of Diana's Colleagues repeatedly talks over her undermines her input and her expertise. Now we can think about this as an interpersonal exchange. But we also think about this at an environmental or climate level, in terms of how the organization is designing systems and norms that are facilitative of inclusive environments. And so Diana faces a dilemma in order to increase the likelihood of getting accommodations in place that will help make our working conditions more fair, she must decide whether to disclose the fact that she was autistic to her manager. Now, disclosing that fat comes with potential upside, it comes with some risks as well. So it's not an easy decision for Diana to make. And so the learners choice, then dictates how the story unfolds and what consequences they face. So that's the immersive part of the experience. And then there's the final part of the module that takes the learner back to our platform. So we invite the learner to reflect on their experience by exploring the choices that they made. From there, there are key concepts from the module that are explained and elaborated on, we do a quick knowledge, check their brief assessment, and then we encourage the learner to take action in the form of a commitment. So these commitments are really thoroughly based research backed strategies that reinforce learning, and they support that transfer of the learning to the actual work environment. So take this example, you can take the time to research a specific disability and learn about the accommodations, or adaptations that can support a person with that disability. As a resource, one that we recommend is the job accommodations networks website, it has a comprehensive list of workplace accommodations that can support people with a wide range of disabilities. So overall, our modules are our general approach, you know, looks at Dei, from that interpersonal as well as that systemic perspective, we don't shy away from the role that individuals play in creating more inclusive and equitable work environments. But as I as I keep mentioning, it's so critical that you tackle those structures, processes, and practices as well, because that really should set the standard for fairness, and equity. So that interplay between the individual and the system is just such a common thread and our modules,
Alexander Sarlin:truly fascinating, and my instructional design hat or you know, spidey senses tingling, and all sorts of great ways. When I hear you talk about the reflection and the learning commitment, and making sure that you sort of introduced the experience in a really clear way, wrap it up, make sure there's transfer and people walk away able to actually use this in their regular life. It's a that's a really beautiful design. And I want to try it, it sounds so interesting that I see what you mean about the empathy building. Heather, let's, let's follow up on that. So, you know, once a company has this Dianna module, really interesting, they have a whole set of employees going through it in the same month, what type of information would they see? What would the learning department see? What might senior leadership see? What are the kinds of things that can come out of this that have direct impact on the organization?
Heather Shen:Yeah, one of the things that we've been really excited to see with all of our partners thus far is that they want like the table six data around engagement and completion, yes, but I think they're also really interested in are people learning? Are they changing their behaviors? And like, what can the organization do to support that learning and that change? So you know, we do all of the aggregate engagement, Completion, but we also go much farther, we track how learners grow in those core competencies of empathy, of their ability to identify bias in their competence and taking action. Admin can also see how they progress on commitments that Mikayla mentioned these research back strategies to really get a sense of how learners are embedding these learnings in their day to day lives, and how they might be affecting the teams and functions that they're a part of. But what we're really seeing impact on at the organization level, is that the EI hotspots that Mikayla mentioned earlier. So these are the areas that individuals are saying, like, Oh, if I had to force rank, something, this is would be my top priority for the organization to focus on. And it really lets the admin think and understand what areas need greater resourcing where the newspaper closer attention to. It includes everything from pay equity, to mentorship to micro aggressions, and what we think is really powerful is that we can further cut this data by demographic factors. For example, like one of our clients found that among black learners, there was a greater need for mentorship and sponsorship than other demographic groups. And armed with that information, they were really able to take that to the teams and be able to say, hey, we need to invest more in mentorship and sponsorship for black employees across the organization. So that it In an essence is kind of like an example where we saw us being able to provide provide data and get the organization to take action against it. And that ability to connect learning outcomes to diversity, equity, inclusion outcomes. And the broader talent strategy is where we're really excited to see that systemic and organizational change that most ei trainings can't get to
Alexander Sarlin:really amazing set of information for an organization and very actionable obviously goes far beyond sort of basic usage. If you'll forgive me a tiny tangent, it's just me as you talk about this and makes me think about something. You know, Makayla, you mentioned that some of these scenarios have these branching options, you can decide whether to reveal that your autism or not, and I'm a big fan of these Telltale Games, it's like games, a game company, it's not, it's actually out of business now. But that does all these branching, one of the branching scenarios, and one of the things they do is they show you at the end, how many people chose each branch. And it strikes me as that even that information would be so interesting for an organization to say, you know, maybe by generation, how many people under the age of 30 revealed that they were autistic in the scenario versus over the age of 30. I bet his really different numbers there. And there's all sorts of interesting insights that you can get when you're dropping people into a realistic scenario. It's just it's really, really an interesting set of data that I'm sure takes, you know, learning and development departments way beyond where they are with with, you know, with in person training or other solutions. Mikhail I want to follow up with you and go even deeper, you know, you come from this quarter corporate training background, you've been in Learning Development at American Express and large companies. One thing that strikes me is really interesting about practice Labs is that it takes a really different approach than than traditional l&d departments. And I'm curious from your perspective, from, you know, with your, your history in that field, what sort of gets you most excited? What are some of the pain points, the common pain points in l&d that practices attempting to remedy?
Mekalya Castro:So for me, this is all about getting to behavior change, and to a point where we can say that people have been transformed by the experiences that we're providing or that that l&d can provide so when we talk about DDI training, as I as I mentioned, there tends to be a lot of focus on that kind of conceptual understanding, knowledge acquisition and retention. And while we know that that's really important, we know that that's not enough. So if we're really looking to change hearts, minds and behaviors, we have to do something different. So in l&d, I think one of the things where where we don't pay enough attention to is that emphasis on understanding and enabling learner readiness. So really, and that would include things like fostering and bolstering motivation and self efficacy. So motivation, in particular, within our platform, I'll focus a little bit there. We think it's so important because we don't recommend that organizations mandate Praxis labs. So we know that dei trainings are susceptible to backlash. And we want to minimize that by making it a voluntary participation. At the same time, we of course, want as many people to be engaged and inspired to engage in our platform, including those who might be a little anxious, resistant or skeptical. So you know, the positioning of our learning experience is is critically important. We work with a general or a dei specific communications teams within our partner organizations, to tailor messaging in a way that is compelling for people. So we work with them on a multi pronged approach for their organization. And we first we try to align on their organization's strategy and brand communicating how and why Praxis labs fits into their overall dei mission, why it's important, what to expect. So this is all in their language, look and feel. And then secondly, we encourage organizations to have a designated hub have a place where people can go to and learn more about Practice labs and the opportunity. It could be an intranet site, or some other internal resource as well. And then the third thing that we encourage, and we're really proud of the uptake that we see with this specifically, is executive sponsorship. So this look like a senior leader making a video that showcases the why and benefits of Praxis labs, and we know that having people in power talk about why this is important, is really going to facilitate people's engagement and their sense of motivation. So we know that that's just one aspect of learner motivation. You know, once they've decided to join the platform and experience our modules, there's a whole other stream of motivational mechanisms that we can explore. And that's something that we're actively doing. So one thing that we're exploring is how can we bring in accountability partners or buddies and use that as a means to support people on their growth journey, helping them engage and complete those commit mints that they have made. So that's one thing that we're exploring and are really excited about. I think a second area of weakness for l&d as it relates to behavior change is this lack of emphasis on practice and skill development. So both in the learning environment itself, and then as it relates to transfer outside of the learning environment. So we know this is such a well known pain point, and yet we still struggle with it. So that's why we're putting more emphasis on creating opportunities for learners to practice, what inclusive and equitable behaviors look like day to day. So what kind of real time example take giving and receiving feedback. So people don't usually think of giving and receiving feedback as a dei issue or look through it. through that lens, we've actually conducted a focus group and found just that, that people usually don't relate those two things. But we know that one's sense of self and identity are completely wrapped up in the experience of feedback. And identity is a core concept within Dei. So we think about the ways in which identity intersects with motivation and emotion when giving and receiving feedback, as well as how identity intersects with the form and function of feedback. So we think about questions such as How do you be inclusive and equitable and giving feedback across different identities such as along racial and gender lines, so we're actively working in building out a product that will allow learners to practice doing just that. And we're making these skill building opportunities more bite sized in our current module so that learners can really practice more in the flow of their work.
Alexander Sarlin:So this focus on on practice on moving from concepts to skills to behavior change, really does feel like something that is not nearly you know, it's a it's a common pain point in l&d The, there's this sort of set it and forget it model for a lot of companies. And it feels like you're you're actively looking for all sorts of ways, executive sponsorship, like sort of that that's like that white labeled sort of listing where companies can explain it in their own language, all of these different options to just really embed this. I love the fact like you said, it's not mandatory, I mean, giving the giving your the learners autonomy to choose to opt into this, just in and of itself is so motivating, brave. It's really brave for you guys as a company, because it's something where, you know, you could say yeah, mandated you di is important, but by saying no, no, if we mandated there's going to be a backlash, people are going to feel resentful. Let's, let's let's show them the value of it. It's really powerful. Heather, you're the chief product officer, as well as the co founder. And it's really amazing how the impressive list of corporate clients that practices Labs has already been working with, you have giant tech companies at Google, eBay, Uber, Etsy, you have massive retailers like Amazon and target. I'd like to know, you know, you're one of the faces of the company, and also, obviously, really making the product that all of these groups work with? How do you structure these relationships? And specifically, if you go to, you know, a giant company like an Amazon, what is the sort of prime first audience that you recommend for practices experiences?
Heather Shen:Yeah, it's such a great question, because I think we all believe that everyone could use their practice labs, to some extent. But you know, in advance in some of our very early customers, we really started with this corporate knowledge worker, you know, given that we already have a lot of research and expertise in this area, we kind of innately understand some of the experiences that we want, would want to highlight and have them go through. We think that, you know, people managers can really benefit from this experience as well, really thinking about how you lead and manage diverse teams, how do you think about the context that you're in the culture that you're building, as well, as, you know, general, individual contributors, you know, they're the future leaders within these organizations, they can really create change at scale. So we've, we're excited to kind of tackle that corporate knowledge worker and like, provide this really valuable training for them. But you know, if we think even like two, three years out, we really believe that the EI Training is a misnomer. dei training is really just how do you do your job better? How do you work across a global diverse workforce, you know, the state of the of the future of work has changed, essentially, where we're no longer in these teams. We're global, we're distributed, we really have to think about how we're working across all these differences. So, you know, while we start with this corporate knowledge worker, we're also really excited to think about how do we help people work with diverse clients, or how do they help? How do we help retail workers think about how do we how you serve different populations, how do we work across different worker types, you know, salaried, hourly, seasonal, and explore differences in that way. So We're really only at the start of what we think is potential for praxis. And we're really excited to go beyond kind of industries and work our type and explore how can we just help people work better together?
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, I love that answer. And I think you build with a little bit of an alphabet soup, I'm sure you have to explain to a lot of clients, you know, you're doing dei experiences in AR VR, Mr. And, you know, when you explain it that way, and just say, Look, we're in a new world, and you have to work with all sorts of people all over the world, every day, we can make this better and help you prepare for that with really immersive simulations. It's a very convincing, I think, very, very true message. So I'm sure you're just scratching the surface so far, even with these amazing, you know, humongous corporate clients.
Heather Shen:You know, Mikayla gave such a great example in the last in her last answer around giving and receiving feedback. I think most people don't even think about that as an intersectional lens and being able to say, like, is that dei training? Is that like, manager training? Is that like a regular person? Still? Like, yes, to all of the above? Right? It's very much like a yes. And in this instance, yeah. And
Alexander Sarlin:going, you know, I love the examples of working with people, you know, doesn't necessarily just mean working with colleagues, it can be working with clients, it can be working with vendors, it can mean working, cross culturally, I mean, we all do that on a regular basis. Now. And obviously, some companies do it all the time. And it just feels like such a valuable skill set, and expand the extensible skill set. It's there's a lot there. Want to zoom out a bit. You know, we talked a little bit at the beginning of the interview about your virtual reality approach. It is so interesting, and, you know, listeners to this podcast may may notice that we, we try to talk about VR as much as possible, because I'm very bullish, I'm very excited about the possibility of VR and education, including augmented reality, mixed reality. Extended reality, we just saw an announcement of a new headset today, from meta and there are all sorts of other ones, I want to zoom out and ask both of you a little bit about VR. And you know, for our listeners, who some of whom may already be have some VR plans, others may just be watching from the sidelines, they may be very skeptical, they may be very bullish on it. I'd love to just talk a little bit as a group about the opportunities and challenges of learning in virtual reality. McHale I'd love to start with you as a curriculum expert, as a learning designer. What's most exciting about VR for education? And what's where are the pitfalls? Where are the constraints?
Mekalya Castro:Yeah. So one of the things that's great for me personally about joining practice Labs is that it's an opportunity for me to continue to grow and learn. So actually can't say I'm an expert on virtual reality, in the context of learning and learning design. But I'm really excited and really excited about the potential to learn more about both the advantages and the disadvantages. So knowing that this is a relatively nascent field, there is exciting research emerging both around the impact of VR, as well as the gaps that need to be close. But when you start to look at that overall body of research, there is that evidence that VR has better outcomes compared to alternative non immersive methods. So that's really promising. One of the biggest opportunities for VR VR based learning that I think is how it can improve dei based training outcomes specifically, in this field that we're operating in, how can it help and support? So I mentioned earlier, you know, diversity training has a long history, it's, it's fraught with some limitations. And this is so much so that, you know, some might even say, oh, forget about trying to change individuals just focus on changing systems and processes. You know, I don't think we need to or should give up on people as the catalysts for change. And that it's important to approach dei from all different angles as many angles as you can. So dai training and learning and development should really be part of a broader set of strategies and measures that incorporate both individual behavior and systemic policies and structures. So one specific limitation that I think we address is how anti bias training can actually reinforce stereotypes. When asking people to suppress them, it can actually have the opposite effect, making stereotypes even more salient. But there's some research emerging, noting that one potential antidote is to actually increase empathy for other groups. And so that's exactly what we're doing with our work. In one study, they looked at the longitudinal effects of diversity training, focused on perspective taking and found that self reported behavior change was positively impacted. And that was especially the case when people had high levels of empathy. So, you know, the way in which we are uniquely encourages empathy through perspective taking begins with what Heather talked about earlier, which is that that enabling factor of presence, so that feeling of really being in a place created by the immersive environment. And we know that that presence isn't attainable through other media, and yet can still have the same psychological benefits associated with high touch and experiential learning. So those are just a couple of the benefits that I see. You know, on the flip side, although the application of VR to dei is promising, we don't have a ton of research. So there's still so much opportunity to test and explore, explore that potential as well as the boundary conditions. So a couple of things that come to mind in terms of what we want to watch out for, I think one thing is the potential fatigue experienced by learners. So we'd like to think about taking continuous high touch approach compared to traditional event based EI Training. As mentioned, we currently offer a module a month over the course of six to 12 months. But we're also actively focused on providing more bite sized learning offerings, so are they are more manageable, given high levels of learner fatigue. And we know that there are so many corporate learning options available to workers. And so we want to be able to kind of meet them where they're at, and limit that potential of fatigue. So creating experiences in a way that intrinsically motivates people to want to come back to the platform is something that, you know, we're actively exploring, and I talked a little bit about that earlier. Another concern, it relates to the psychological or potential psychological intensity of VR experiences, and especially the types of experiences we're dealing with. So standing in the shoes of someone experiencing bias, or even someone who's a bystander can lead to some pretty intense emotions. And so it might also bring up real lived experiences for for people, which can be tough. And so that's one reason why opting into the platform versus mandating it is critical. At the same time, we've also found that when people reflect on their own experiences of bias Praxis helps give them the language to name it, which can be really validating, and one that helps them identify when it happens, again, whether that's to themselves or to other people. So we do have some checks in place so as to mitigate the potential impact of a negatively intense experience such as disclaimers, but it is tricky. And I think that there's probably even more that we can do there. So those are just a couple of the potential opportunities as well as potential things to watch out for with respect to VR in the context of the work that we're specifically doing.
Heather Shen:I think, actually, to build off one of the things that Mikayla mentioned in terms of like, validating some of these linear experiences, I just want to share a story about like, really, very early on when we had just launched the product, I think maybe it was like two or three months. And we were part of like this Slack community we had created for the, for these learners. And they had just come out of one of our very first modules that deals with interviewing bias during interviewing and stereotype threat. And it was like a moment for me that felt like, oh, wow, we're onto something here. One, this woman, you know, she put in the Slack channel, just like thank you so much practice labs, I had no idea that there was a phenomenon named like stereotype threat that, and I had what I realized, I've been experiencing it all of my life, and to be able to say like, okay, we're not only helping educate others who, you know, might be on the opposite side of that, but we're also helping validate the experiences of those who are experiencing a real time or like, who have those lived experiences. It was just like a really exciting moment of, okay, this is the potential that VR has to like, bring out and also name kind of what people might be experiencing it without having them kind of like, bear all of their trauma to their colleagues or have to put it on display. It's really fascinating.
Alexander Sarlin:So that's, I think, a moment that all of us in education really live for when somebody can take a new concept to them and not only experience it, but recognize it in themselves and then say, I now understand myself better, I'm going to change going forward, I'm going to understand my whole you know, the whole situation, you know, it's it's exactly the power of that kind of immersive learning, you can take something that if you read an article about stereotype threat, it's an academic concept has been in psychological literature for 2030 years, might not make much of a difference when you experience it. You come out of going you know, with your eyes wide open and and I think to your point, Makayla about fatigue and overwhelm and the intensity that's a sort of double edged sword as well, right because it's the intensity can be a wake up call, it can be an amazing moment. And then it can be overwhelming and triggering. So I think that's a really poignant to think about that as one of the potential constraints. But also the kind of one of the special sauces of VR makes things feel so real. I, you know, one study that jumped out to me, the Harvard Graduate School of Education put out a report about VR recently, one of the studies they cited was about, they took students on a virtual field trip to Greenland in VR, and then showed in a different set of students a video about, you know, flat, regular video about the same topic. And the ones who took the VR, you know, short a trip, had higher interest in climate change, they enjoyed the experience more, and they retained more, they actually took it forward with them. And I think, you know, when you talk about the nascent body of research about learning and VR, there's been some really positive signs about about it just sticking I mean, we, our brains live through experience, not through words and concepts. So it's really promising. And I think those are both great answers. We are coming up on the end of our time here, but this has been truly fascinating. I need a an account to try these practice labs. Seriously, I really want to see what this is like. So we wrap up every interview with two questions. Let's start with you, Heather. So what do you see as the most exciting trend in the EdTech landscape generally, that you think our listeners should keep an eye on?
Heather Shen:I think there's this general push to really thinking about learning, based on like, what is the behavior change that is gonna come out of it, you know, less around like, okay, are they completing it? Are they clicking through it? Or can they answer some questions and but really, like, how are you applying this in your own life? And I think that's, you know, something that's, like, rooted in learning science and psychology, it's, you know, a shift from being very passive to, from like, clicking through a slideshow to thinking about like, okay, like, how do you practice and really apply all of these learnings in, in a meaningful way? So I'm really excited about that shift.
Alexander Sarlin:Absolutely. Mikayla, how about you? Yeah, so
Mekalya Castro:I'm not going to veer away from from virtual reality. I mean, where we're operating in a space that's, that's trending. And it's so exciting to think about how it can come further into the mainstream, and the potential that it has for for education and for learning and for behavior change. I think one area within that is really exciting is how we think about how we can use data that's captured in VR experiences to create learning that's even more relevant and more personalized, as well as how we can think about measurement differently and really understand what people are actually learning. How are they changing behaviors, I think that's really exciting. We know everyone is on their own journey with respect to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And so we just think it would be so ideal to tailor learning accordingly, truly meeting people where they're at, and then providing them with exactly the right scaffolding.
Alexander Sarlin:I love that there was this concept in a few years ago in education called stealth assessment, which meant you can assess what people are learning just from their behavior, what they're doing while they're learning rather than having to actually do a formal assessment. It feels like VR is incredibly ripe for that type of self based assessment where you say, this person did this while they were in VR, therefore, we know that they're actually learning with the skills and concepts and you don't have to even follow up on that. It's such an interesting concept. And then back to you, Heather, what is one resource you would recommend? It could be book, blog, newsletter, anything that you would recommend for anybody who wants to go deeper into the topics we talked about today?
Heather Shen:Well, we talked about the Virtual Human Interaction Lab out of Stanford, I think they're doing some really amazing work thinking about the intersection of VR and empathy. But I also have to recommend, like how to be a diversity and inclusion ambassador, it's a new book by Celeste Warren. She's been an amazing partner of ours at Merck and is truly like a thought leader in the DEI space. So recommend that for anyone who's interested in continuing learning about diversity, equity inclusion.
Alexander Sarlin:Terrific. Mikayla, what a resource from you about anything we talked about today.
Mekalya Castro:Yeah, so mine's a little bit on perhaps unexpected, but it's called. It's the book how emotions are made by Lisa Feldman Barrett, and it's this. She's a psychologist and neuroscientists and it's this look at emotions that bust some of the myths about them in terms of them being automatic and hardwired. And it's really this look at emotions as this interplay between biology and culture. And so I think if you decide to read this book and read it with this kind of dei lens, I think it's really interesting to think about the role of emotions and how that intersects with the journey that people are on with respect to diversity, equity and inclusion.
Alexander Sarlin:Terrific recommendations, as always, we will put links to those books is how to be a dei Ambassador by Celeste born I think I have that right and how emotions are made Lisa Feldman Barrett as well as a link to the Virtual Human Interaction Laboratory. I don't know if I got that one but the the Virtual Lab at Stanford, thank you so much for being here. I'm really excited about my my first adventure in practice labs and what you're doing is really is really amazing. I really appreciate you being here with us on a tech insiders.
Heather Shen:We'll have to get you through headset soon.
Mekalya Castro:Thank you so much.
Alexander Sarlin:Thanks for listening to this episode of edtech insiders. If you liked the podcast, remember to rate it and share it with others in the EdTech community. For those who want even more and Tech Insider, subscribe to the free ed tech insiders newsletter on substack.