Edtech Insiders
Edtech Insiders
Mapping the Mega-Trends in Edtech with Acky Kamdar of Magic Edtech
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Acky Kamdar is the CEO of Magic EdTech and Magic Finserv. He is a technology entrepreneur and an investor in the fields of digital technologies, blockchain, machine learning, AI and NLP. Acky has over 25 years of experience in Process Management, Technology Solutions, and Outsourcing services at companies like Genpact, Headstrong, Compaq Computers and the HCL group. Currently, he also serves as General Partner at Solmark, a NY-based entrepreneurs equity fund.
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Welcome to Season Two of edtech insiders, where we talk to the most interesting thought leaders, founders, entrepreneurs, educators and investors driving the future of education technology. I'm your host, Alex Sarlin, an edtech veteran with over 10 years of experience at top tech companies. Acky Kamdar is the CEO of magic ed tech and magic fin surf. He's a technology entrepreneur and an investor in the fields of digital technologies, Blockchain, machine learning AI and natural language processing. Acky has over 25 years of experience in Process Management Technology Solutions, and outsourcing services companies like Genpact, headstrong Compaq, and the HCl group, currently also serves as general partner at cellmark, a New York based entrepreneurs equity fund Acky Kamdar. Welcome to EdTech. Insiders.
Acky Kamdar:Thank you very much for having me, Alex, I've heard all your podcast and you know, I'm excited to be here with you.
Alexander Sarlin:I'm excited to have you here. It's great you're calling in from your New York office. So actually, your career has always revolved around digital technologies and services, not always in education, but sometimes tell us more about your path and how it brought you into the education and edtech space. And how you got to the idea for magic edtech.
Acky Kamdar:Yeah, sure. It's been a long journey. For me, I started my career in 85. I was in India selling hardware computers moved to us sometime in 1999. My previous venture was in financial services, Europe, and we sold that in 2011. And decided to V as in my me and my partners, we decided to set up a small private equity fund. It's called Soul marks based here in New York. And our idea was to invest and grow companies where technology becomes the disrupter and helps the transformation. So I think when we got into magic software in 2014, you know, education was obviously booming, you know, the whole conversation around digital education was huge. And we felt that we would be able to, you know, definitely create some value here, I must share with you a little story of my own personal journey in this. Being in Wall Street, we always thought we are masters of universe, we are the people that make the world go round. So coming into education, within a year's time, I was really humbled to see the impact that we can make using technology, and people's lives. And today, the work that we do at magic at Tech, I'm really proud of the art positioning as digital learning for everyone. I feel that the products that we are building, specifically with the focus on accessibility, and be I, I feel that we are working with, you know, educators to create learning products that are inclusive, that will bring some equity in the learning world. And I think that, you know, now I go back and, you know, talk to my family, I'm very proud that, you know, I'm doing something which is meaningful, impactful, there's a sense of mission here. There was a time in 2008, when I was talking to my children about the financial crisis, because that's when I was running that company. One of my kids actually responded that, that the technology of you building for the derivatives firm, it sounds almost like gambling. So from there coming into education, is a big change.
Alexander Sarlin:It really is. And, you know, we talk to entrepreneurs on this show a lot. And that sense of mission of really making a difference. And using technology to close equity gaps and make you know, the best education and best and improving lives for people all over the world is such a exciting reason to go into a field. And that's what brought me into into education technology as well. But it's quite a turn to go from private equity and Wall Street purely into edtech. And it's exciting to hear what you've been doing so much get to consult with education technology companies all around the world, but you have offices both in the US and in India, which are two enormous markets for edtech. I'd like to ask you, you know, having a foot in both markets, where do you see the Indian edtech landscape going? And what do you see as the major differences between ed tech in the US and Ed Tech in India?
Acky Kamdar:Thank you for asking that. I must first start with Indian tech sector. India's domestic market is booming as you'd see with the groceries going on over there. Plus, you know, we all know that like us, India has, you know, the largest democracy in the world. So the idea of education and you know, Creating the sense of citizenship is huge in India, you know, parents are very committed to that concept. And because of the diversity that is there in India, the headroom for growth into the attack is huge. So I think, you know, just the scale is just massive, like, from every perspective, not just the population perspective, but the cultural aspect of this, right. And when you take that into what could be the potential demand is huge, because comparing to us, unlike us, us has made a lot of progress in, you know, building the infrastructure for schools, colleges, universities, you know, standards, you know, those kinds of things. Whereas, in India, I think a lot of that is being set up, particularly in the digital space, just to rattle out a few numbers in India, the CATO market, two 50 million odd students, which is five times the market size of us, right, you know, 1.4 million schools, just compare that with 14,000 school districts, you know, and multiply that by whatever number of schools, similarly, 35 million students in higher ed, besides the fact that it produces the largest number of engineers in the world, there is this last mile, you know, training requirement, which is huge. And you pick up any sector within India, whether it's nursing, whether it is, you know, technology, you pick up any sector, there's a retail manufacturing, there's a huge skills gap in India, and today's, you know, leadership in India, which is government, led by the government, actually, they are working very aggressively towards building the network infrastructure for digital learning. They're building standards for all these certifications as well. And I think all of that will go into fueling the growth. So I'm very buying on that market, we actually have been working with quite a few folks to begin with, you know, publishers, but now at tech companies as well, to help them power their learning platforms. Coming back to us versus India, you know, you asked me to compare to the US market, I think the good old problems of Euro the last mile, you know, issues with the old digital learning, are there enough devices available is the network bandwidth enough. And in India, one of the things, especially when you go to the rural market, which is a very big market, is the power supply. And those things still do plague, you know, and therefore, it does become a little bit of a frustrating experience, when you compare with, you know, US and India and you look at the digital education landscape, but I think, you know, the country has India, like us has the willingness to commit to education, and follow through this. Yeah, so
Alexander Sarlin:I'm hearing that the Indian landscape, the Indian sector is so enormous, you know, so many students to access the end, they're building the core infrastructure from both k 12. and higher ed, they're building the digital infrastructure to really be able to actually deliver education to that many students. But so far, there's still some constraints, some the power constraints, bandwidth constraints, just delivery constraints, the last mile training is really important, because some of the colleges are relatively new, I don't think you said this part. But I know that, you know, we hear a lot about the Indian market, there are many, many institutions of higher education, but they don't necessarily actually get their graduates to the jobs they want. So you know, the skills gap that you mentioned. But you know, we've talked on the podcast about the by Jews and the upgrades and some of these massive, massive, Indian edtech companies a lot, and it is it's pretty astounding what they're accomplishing.
Acky Kamdar:Yes, I've been very invested in a few companies. And we see that after we hire students from, you know, all these programs, we still have to invest between three and six months minimum, to get them up to speed and get them, you know, to be able to contribute into our projects and into our work. So, yes. And, you know, we tried outsourcing that a few times, you know, that gap is still there in the market.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah. And that's such an amazing opportunity when you have so many people are hungry for work hungry to close that skills gap. And right now, the onus is falling on individual employers, but ad tech could really, really make a big difference. And we've seen some of that with some boot camps. We've seen some of that with online courses, but I think there's still a ways to go and it's a such an enormous market. There's a lot there.
Acky Kamdar:Yes, thank you for that. Yeah.
Alexander Sarlin:So let's talk a little bit about more what magic edtech actually does. It's such an interesting model. So works with education publishers, other ad tech companies, like you've mentioned, and basically helps companies expand their ability to deliver high quality accessible and thoughtfully engineered educational experiences. And you know, when you dig down on what that actually means, it means a lot of different things. The case studies on unmagic edtech Are you know, there's UX support, there's accessibility. There's go to market strategies, sales training, you design curriculum for certain clients, you've done engineering work to actually build the infrastructure and the technology. That's a lot of different services. So tell us a little bit about the role that the magic ed tech plays in supporting ad tech companies and how it delivers this wide range of services.
Acky Kamdar:Yes, I like to Ural, I will do a better job of that, when you list out the list of things that we do. For our customers, it looks too much, and it looks very widespread. But I always say this to my customers, as well as to my board members, that there is one hook on which you hang all our codes. And that hook is, if you're building digital learning products come to magic will help you within that digital learning product. What you need us to do is that list of things that you pointed out from our website. So I think you know if that helps you understand. So essentially, my customers are publishers at tech companies, and some of the higher education institutions as well. And these customers are building or designing, designing or building digital learning products, we would be able to help them right from product strategy, to program management, to execution. So whether it is doing the content work or doing the technology work below that, you do all of that, because in the Digital Learning world, you can't say this is content. And this is platform because the experience to the student matters the most. And if you're thinking holistically a student's experience, then I may have to work on content, I may have to work on the platform, but I have to deliver that experience to the student. Because ultimately my goal is how do I deliver better learning efficacy for the student? That's my goal. So no matter what I have to do so if you look at all those case studies on my website, ultimately points to one thing, am I helping this digital learning product to deliver a better learning efficacy for the student? What I mean by that better living efficacy, which means a video is 20 minutes long? For a nursing program, right? And can I make that video? 15 minutes? Can I make it eight minutes long? So I've improved the timeline. But also, after the video is done? If I ask 10 questions, can the learner answer all the 10 questions correctly? Now I've created learner efficacy. So this is what I'm focused on. And I want to give them a better experience in that eight minute video insert 20 minute video. Right? Now, I'm not necessarily saying that always a 20 minute has to become eight minute or 20 minute can become 30 minutes to but I think I'm really focused on the learning efficacy, can the student answer all the questions correctly? And most of the time, it is about time. Also, it's about the fact that how do I make it a little more efficient for them? So I think if you think about my customers, the ad tech companies in the publishing houses, when they come to us, they're looking for value in this partnership with magic, right? One is, hey, help me get this product done quickly faster. So time to market is very important. And they're the biggest value for them is the revenue impact. If I don't deliver there on time, if I don't meet their back to school deadlines, that they're going to lose revenue, they're gonna have customer issues that they are and so time to market is the first most important value. The second important thing is can you do it at a lower price? Correct. So the cost and this has a margin impact for them. Right. The next thing is helped me risk mitigate, helped me comply. Right. And this is very big, by the way in our world, you know, help you build a product, which is more secure. You know, student privacy is a big thing, data security is a big thing. You know, help me meet my accessibility mandates, help me meet my di mandates, you know, and you know, some of the stuff we need to understand the jurisdiction in which the product is being delivered. Right? State of Texas may have different jurisdiction, different mandates, Wyoming might have different, you go to sell it to Europe, it might be different, right. So our ability to understand what is required to be delivered. So the risk mitigation is very important. This is where we play a very important role from the product design itself, not just execution, but the design itself. And then all this boils down to essentially help you become more competitive in a market. That's, that's what it comes down to it. This is what we tried to do for our customers. And I've seen you know how technology evolves, you know, for my customers as they get on to the digital. You know, one of the things for them is to remain competitive because you can't just stick a product out there and just say, Okay, I've released it, you will continuously maintain it, you're continuously supporting. And most importantly, and we'll come to that a little bit later, is operationally support the teachers and the learners to go through and use that product. Because at the end of the day, you know, if they are not able to use it successfully, then you know, we are not, we can just be happy to releasing a great product.
Alexander Sarlin:You know, it's so interesting, it's striking me, as I hear you talk about this that, you know, Ed Tech is really a complicated field, I think compared to a lot of other types of delivery, you know, and tech companies and publishers really have a lot on their plate, they do, as you say, have to comply, they have to be accessible, they need to maintain in very high levels of student privacy, they also need high quality curriculum, they also need go to market and training for marketing departments and sales departments, they need support and engineering. It's, it is a complicated world. And it's I think that this sort of one hook, whatever it takes approach, it's like a, it feels very relevant to a moment right now, in tech history where you have more players than ever before, there are more companies starting there more startups, there are a lot of publishers that have been around for a long time, a lot of incumbents, but also a lot of new players, all starting to move into this space and needing to learn about all of the different aspects that go into an ad tech product. So I'd like to, you know, building on that, I'd like to ask you, what is your dream client for magic? edtech? Do you like working with big publishers? Do you like working with small startups with three people? Well, or anything in between who you really like to work with?
Acky Kamdar:Yeah, very good question. Actually, you know, this is something that we asked ourselves very often. So you know, just be very practical, you know, for me, anybody who, who says, I need your help, and we can help that, you know, that's fine. It's a good starting point from an engagement perspective. And then, you know, we of course play, we try to play a, you know, to consultative role, and become a part of try to become a partner to them. For us, a dream client is someone, you know, whose values and missions or sense of mission matches to our values and our sense of mission. You know, needless to say, you know, I started this conversation with you that, why do I feel great about being in attack is because that sense of mission that comes out very clearly, when you go and engage. Fortunately, most of the folks that we end up working with on the other side are educators, you know, by their, you know, previous work experience. So, if you're out there trying to solve a problem, by and large, we try to, we are kind of matching one another. The other thing is that, you know, are we able to see the, are we able to work with the client on the product holistically, we might be doing one piece within that entire product development, or delivery. But are we able to engage with the client holistically on the entire learners journey on that student on that plat platform, or on that product? The reason why I'm saying this is because if I don't understand the entire value proposition for the learner, then I'm not able to add value, even if I'm doing a small piece within that development cycle. So I think one of the things we do with our clients when we are working with them, is to get to that level of understanding and partnership, where the customer is involving us to get the holistic view of that learners journey, because remember, I'm measuring my outcome in learners efficacy, have I improved that or not? If I can't see that, then it's a little bit frustrating. But I'm not, you know, so that dream client question. I hope I've answered that.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, and I think your focus on efficacy is really compelling. Because I think we're at a point in the EdTech evolution now, you know, evolution of the space where people are starting to take efficacy and evidence more seriously than ever before. It's something we talk about on the podcast a lot that for a long time, big, you know, incumbents would continue to sell the same products to schools year after year, and there just wasn't always that much research behind them. Sometimes, you know, kid, that doesn't mean they didn't work, necessarily, but it just wasn't always that much evidence. And I think we're entering a phase of edtech, where evidence and efficacy and really making sure that what we're putting in front of students actually moves, the needle is becoming more important than ever. So I think the idea of a dream client being somebody who's equally focused on efficacy, who really can share their entire learner journey and give you the context as a consultancy, to really be able to add value and not just sort of plug one thing in about compliance and, and then sort of walk away. I can imagine that's much more fulfilling. So you do get to work with many different clients, you work with K 12 clients, higher ed, adult professional learning, you mentioned nursing programs before, and much of magic Ed Tech's work focuses on business to business enterprise learning. So you know, I wanted to ask, you know, you work with such a variety of different kinds of places. What are some of the trends you've been seeing in the field, in terms of what education companies are really thinking about and looking for right now in 20? wanting to, especially around b2b,
Acky Kamdar:you know, when it comes to digital learning, you know, we can list many trends. But let me see if I can rattle a few that the way I look at it is zero, we're gonna get called for investments, right? Where do I get called to say, hey, let's, let's be a little proactive in this space. And so, you know, one is certainly, you know, there's an area where almost all of my customers end up talking to me on digital adoptions. And it's a product strategy discussion, where they're saying, How do I improve my adoptions? Right? And what can I do to improve my adoption? Right. So I think this is one big point that keeps coming up very often. The second is, di has become a very big topic three, four years back, it was accessibility, I think we are now talking a lot about di particularly post pandemic that's come up. Social Emotional Learning is a very big topic. Again, that's something coming up again, and again, we are engaged with quite a few of our clients, helping them build products in that space. teacher's professional training, big focus. Again, I think, you know, we all know that, you know, in the post pandemic world, I'm not even talking about teacher shortage, I'm just talking about the current teachers that how do we help them adapt to the new realities post pandemic, and that integration is something you know, we just, we've been talking about integration even before but now it is even more evident that it is an area of huge investment. And each topic is multi dimensional, you can, you know, break it down further and, you know, talk about it for a long time,
Alexander Sarlin:I would actually love to do some of that, because I think these are all really interesting and relevant topics to many of our listeners. So let me see if it was adoption of so that, you know, people actually using the product, you know, in a consistent basis and actually being engaged with it, dei diversity, equity and inclusion, SEL, they sometimes call it social emotional learning, or sort of focusing on mental well being health Hall in K 12. That's all child for b2b That might mean, you know, wellbeing for employees or trainees, teacher professional development, including training, you know, tech training, I imagine and integration are, you know, maybe we can even say like interoperability making tools work together so that they don't all stand alone and sort of operate in a silo. Did I? Did I get those? Right?
Acky Kamdar:Yes, you got all those in a while? All right.
Alexander Sarlin:Okay, so let's start with adoption. So, you know, adoption for, especially for b2b products, has been the name of the game for a while it's become and this idea of sort of engagement, how do you build an edtech product that people actually want to do has become a really easy sort of a holy grail in digital learning, get something that people want to do that they engage with as much as they engage with social media or other other you know, other other properties. And that's become super important during the pandemic, because education move largely online. And I think a lot of people are doing online education for the first time ever, you want to make sure they actually like it, they come back there, they're using it. So what does adoption and engagement entail in 2022? How are companies thinking about increasing the adoption of their ad tech products?
Acky Kamdar:A big topic first, for a publisher, or for an ad tech company, you know, product adoptions is directly connected to revenue. Right? Yeah, that's the first thing, right? Because that's what gets them subscription or renewals? Or if you may want to talk about that. But I think you know, you think about it from the learners perspective, right? And the way I see it is your it goes back to this thing, what we call it is better engagement. If you get the students to engage well, right, that will deliver better learning efficacy, right? You know, and if I, as a learner feel that I'm far more efficient, on this platform, in terms of learning something, then I'm going to keep coming back to it again. So therefore, better options. So better engagement, leads to better learning efficacy, therefore, that leads into better product adoptions. And for the business person, which is in this case is publisher or ad tech company, whereas that learning product out in the market, it's better revenue as well. So the math is simple, you know. And, you know, I talk about this, you know, I can't remember the name of the novel, but when the first time the Pharaoh in Egypt, gets a report that there's, there's an animal that the Palestinian army is coming with, which is, and that person describes that animal, it takes four pages to describe that animal. At the end of it, we realize it's a horse because they've never seen the horse. Right? I always quote this example that and I read those four pages to understand what this person is trying to say. And then I figured it's a horse, right? So my learning efficacy is reading for pages, 20 minutes gone, or whatever that pace at which I read, and it took me to understand that's a horse, right? If I were to show you a picture and it will take a few seconds, right? If I were to show a video, then I get a better efficacy because I now I fully understand what that animal is all about. It will take maybe 30 seconds to understand that thing. So think about that learner learner efficacy, right? And then it goes to the other question that we often talk about in our business is what kind of a learner you are you are you a text reader, kind of a learner or your video kind of a guy, or your audio or your practitioner, you want to play with something before you learn something, right? You know, so there are different kinds of learners, right. And so then you think about, you know, if you're a video kind of a person, maybe I'd thrown at you, you know, the concept of gravity in a video format, and teach you gravity that way. But I'll throw one more wrinkle at this. And this is what the educators are now coming to is that, you know, there are days, when you would prefer to learn that topic, reading a text, versus there are days, you say, I'm not in the text, but today I'm in a mood to do the video learning, or other, I would like to like to do a conversation with somebody. And I would like to learn that, right? So it could be also which day, I will use which format right? Now, again, remember, I'm talking about digital learning. And so what happens is you trying to look, you're trying to get to the learner where the learner is today. Right? And I'm going to pause here, right? Your digital learning product has to get to the learner where the learner is today. And so of that learning concept, right? This is where you create better engagement. And of course, the product has to be high quality to deliver, you know, better learning efficacy. You know, the pedagogy concept doesn't go away. I'm not writing that off at all. Better instructional design. Yes, absolutely. But a learning architecture around that product, absolutely. You need to, but you need to dish up that learning product, where the learner is sitting. And this is what we all are working towards to create better engage. Yeah, it's
Alexander Sarlin:interesting to hear you talk about it in this way. Because, you know, the idea of the learning preferences, right? How do you prefer to learn? What modality Do you like? Do you prefer text or video? I definitely agree that it's not consistent, right? Because you may may be that you prefer to read when you're on your phone, on the bus, but you've heard or watch a video when you're in a different situation, or just my change, given any given day. And I think it's interesting to sort of focus on the different modalities and what learner preferences are. And then what are their you mentioned, sort of meeting them halfway? What are their expressed preferences? Like, we know that there are certain types of interactions that people do on their computers and phones that they do? Often they really liked doing? So how do we learn from those about how to deliver better learning that would include things like simulations and games, like video learning, you mentioned, it might include text learning, which is starting to, you know, be popular or learning through social media, like sites like Tic tock, and YouTube, all of these are on the table when it comes to what modality looks like, and then it all drives to what you're saying the revenue, if people actually do it, and they actually find it efficient, then they're gonna keep going. And that's better for everybody, the learners learn faster, they get further and the delivery, the education technology delivery system, gets more learners gets more engagement and ultimately gets more revenue. That's like the positive flywheel we all want to see when we make engaging learning. And I love I love hearing you talk about it.
Acky Kamdar:Yeah. And I think that's what we're talking about is how do you bring different formats, different media, on the same distribution channel, and, again, meet the learner where the learner is sitting, that's the most important thing. You know, there are folks who are working on this, you know, they're saying, Let us create a lab where we create this whole options available, we actually work for one of the one of our customers to create five great learning concepts for middle school science program. And we exactly dealt with simple medium complex simulations, or as we would call it is, you know, learning learning objects, we call it, you know, and then make it available in all different models. So the complex one had several different types of ways in which the learner would interact with the concept of gravity was a simple was just two simple types of formatting that they would interact in that learning object, so to say, so I think you know, we all Alex, one reality for all of us is that it's easy for us to say this, but it's also very costly to put it together. Right, right. That's right. Yeah. And if you want to maintain quality, it's, you know, it's very costly. So I have created learning objects which are as low as $400 Each learning object. And I've extended that same to with the cost has been as high as $15,000 for each object. I also have been learning objects which are as high as 80,000 promises, which is this is just a cost for building that learning object, which has this all these different options available for us to Don't just switch from one to the other.
Alexander Sarlin:It's really I love that you brought up the cost, because that's absolutely true. I think a lot of us in the tech world want to make really engaging learning, we want to get it, we want to make meet students where they are, but then the cost becomes prohibitive. And luckily, I think we're starting to move to a place where technology is a little less expensive, video is a little bit more approachable, even VR, which was, you know, considered wildly costly, is starting to come down in price. And it's opening up all sorts of new channels for how to create engaging media. Let's move to our second trends. You mentioned that right now, diversity, equity and inclusion dei is really all over the place in edtech. And, you know, in theory, we've talked about this a couple of times, digital technology should and could be an amazing tool to make learning more accessible and more equitable. There's no sort of there shouldn't be any inherent bias in digital technology. That said, there's still lots of work to be done to actually get us there to ensure that edtech and, and that curriculum is fully inclusive and sort of works for everybody. So from your perspective, what does dei look like right now, in edtech? What are people looking for?
Acky Kamdar:Yeah, so you mentioned accessibility and de Europe? That's interesting, because I'm going to talk about that a little bit later. But just to answer that question first, which is, you know, the be a very basic thing. To me, the way I see it, is the learning product, representing the diverse world that we live in way simply put, right? Is the product, treating different socio economic cultural demographics with fairness, and equitably? Simple question, right? If I belong to minority? Can I relate to the learning material that represents, you know, which probably currently only represents the majority group? Can I relate it? If I'm minority? Can I relate to a product, which is only talking about something that a majority group can relate to? You know, and the world's going on that way? It's not that it's just that now people are bringing it forth? They're talking about it? And I think I'm glad that that's happening, right? Because I always have said this to my customers, that actually, without getting into the cultural wars, that often the DI term brings to the table, it also goes down to the same question that we answered earlier, which is that if I can't relate to the product, then my engagement is going to fall. So my learning efficacy is likely to suffer, therefore, your product adoption will suffer. So if I'm the creator of this product, I'm designing this product, I may as well think bi first. Why would I not take? Because it does affect the engagement, in my opinion, it does affect the learning, efficacy. So get out of the culture war, and think engagement, right? And I'm absolutely sure everybody will come to the same side of the table, that if you do want to create this learning product, it better incorporate the DI concepts, because it is impacting the learning. Nobody's going to argue against that. But we're starting on the wrong end, which is culture wars. That's where I think a lot of this thing becomes very heavy.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, I mean, especially as you know, you know, it's so politically charged right now, this idea of critical race theory, and I, you know, teaching. Yeah, I mean, this 6019 project, there's been so many, incredibly distracting, I would say, you know, culture wars that stem out of some of the ideas behind this, the AI world, but I agree with you that at the end of the day, to get an accessible and efficacious a useful edtech product, you can't bake in biases that will alienate many of the students you're trying to reach. And there's been lots of egregious examples of this in curriculum in the past, I have a kind of a goofy metaphor here, and might be a little bit silly, but it reminds me of how the Marvel superhero movies over the last, you know, 15 years, whatever they've been, you know, it was Iron Man, and it was Captain America and a lot of them for quite a while where all star had white male leads. And they started doing, taking a little bit more, adding a little bit more diversity. And people at the time said, you know, Hey, are you you know, is it a good idea to make a Black Panther movie, it's so different than what some of the other movies and that broke every box office record. We were, I think, was nominated for an Academy Award. It was great business, it was great business for them to, to move away from the majority culture and I think sometimes we forget that it's, we think of it as this sort of equity, this bleeding heart play, but really it a lot in a lot of ways. It's good for everyone to incorporate diverse perspectives, especially the delivery of media and tech. Is that metaphor just too ridiculous Aqir I actually
Acky Kamdar:I was actually gonna Give you an example of that. And you talked about, you know, by the way, have you seen the Disney's Miss Marvel? Yeah, you should see. So, you know, again, you know, they brought in a different minority, to become the lead player, and you know, you should see it, you know, it's, it's, first of all, it's very well made, you know, and it's about, you know, Asian, South Asian family, you know, in New Jersey, you know, very inspired by this whole superpower, you know, going and attending these events and, you know, calm corner, and then you know, you know, she gets the power, and she becomes the voice for the minority community, you know, so it's very interesting. So, and, you know, it has great viewership, by the way. So, you know, it's again, it doesn't link back to the commercial success. So that is there. And I think the idea is that, you know, our fabric, the purpose of education is to make our citizens aware, whether it's, you know, young kids, or it's adults, aware of the diversity of the different ways of thinking different cultural aspects, different social, economic aspects, right, and, you know, be able to relate to that, right. And if we are missing that opportunity, by not incorporating that that's a very sad situation to be in. And our job is to actually do that. And then educators job is to actually do that.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, this is the world we all live in. I mean, it's a world that is so interconnected, where, you know, nobody goes very long without meeting people from all over the world, from different backgrounds, from all sorts of different, you know, with different orientations and races. So it's negligence to teach people to think in a world that is not diverse, it reminds me also that show Never Have I Ever, which I think is the number one show on Netflix right now. Also, you know, a sitcom designed by, I think Mindy Kaling around North Asian, you know, and all sorts of different types of students. And it's the number one show on Netflix, and I think, you know, people just think it's this niche idea, and it just isn't, anyway, we should get back on track again. So we've talked about adoption, we've talked about a little bit of diversity and equity inclusion, hopefully in a way that makes that makes sense. It does that. And then you I think the third was about well being and social emotional learning. So talk to us a little bit about why social emotional learning has become such an enormous issue, especially, you know, in a time of so much anxiety and stress coming out of a pandemic,
Acky Kamdar:I think it is precisely because of the timing of, you know, pandemic and, you know, it caused anxiety and stress. And that brought up focus on that. And by the idea of social emotional learning was there before also, it says that it became a little more mainstream just now, you know, helping students to cope with the stress and anxiety, you know, is something that, you know, it's not just at the level of, you know, young kids, do we start really at that level? In fact, we are working with some of our customers to build some products for the young learners in the SEL space. And then, you know, obviously address it to the adult learners as well. I think, you know, we all have realized that, just focusing on the adult learners itself, you know, the workplace is changing, or your work environments and things becoming hybrid people are working remotely, you know, the interconnection and social fabric has gone away. And so, there's a renewed interest, even from the corporates like ours, right, we're trying to get some different kinds of social emotional learning into place, right, for our team members as well. I think, you know, it's one is the learners. But the other is also the teachers have to be able to adjust to this program, because this is not something that was codified before or was taught before. So it's something very new, and it's coming into mainstream, not many, and we'll talk about teachers professional development as well later, but not many teachers, our coaches are available to put this in place, which is where the pressure is coming in, from the digital learning side, saying, hey, because we have less number of coaches and mentors and teachers in this space, can we put it into a product? And can we make it available in a format, and it's a little bit of a challenging thing, because, you know, it's a subject which does require some amount of, you know, content that needs to be produced in a very creative manner to engage learners. But I think there's also some amount of, you know, so called in person learning that has to take place in the space. I'm really excited with some new technologies coming in, particularly, you know, the AR VR, but we are, I would say, you know, could be applied in this space. We experimented, the we are, you know, more from from teaching students who had certain needs, you know, for example, kids who are, you know, verbally challenged, you know, little kids, they needed help, they could interact in a class, you know, for certain conversation with teachers or the students, give them something that we are Space, and they will be able to do be very comfortable in that environment, you'll feel safe in that environment. So, you know, give that safe environment, I was looking for that word in the VR world and, you know, have this learning product, you know, become more effective. So, so I'm really excited with what technology can help us do in this place.
Alexander Sarlin:I really am, too, I think it's such an interesting expansion, in some ways of what Ed Tech takes on in terms of what it can support students and teachers with, it's not just about academic learning, it's really about how do you, you know, help somebody get over anxiety or depression or stress or, and we're seeing record levels of all of these things in students of all ages. And I think, you know, teachers who've been in the classroom a long time, know very well that they have always had to do social emotional learning, they it's partly it comes with the job, they just haven't had support for it, it usually has to do with a student staying after and asking them for help, or somebody crying or somebody you know, or just having students who are so anxious or miserable, that you have to, you know, change your strategies. But they've been in it totally alone, without any tech without any monitoring without it sort of being even talked about. So I'm pretty bullish on the idea that social emotional learning, coaching, mentoring, mental health, just as a topic is starting to really be, you know, front and center, I think, hopefully, this is one of the silver linings of the pandemic is that we come out of it saying, Hey, we've thought education was just about, you know, information and skills. It's not, it's about, you know, everything that students go through, when they are growing up and trying to figure out their place in the world. I want to ask you about teacher personal development, you mentioned it, in passing there, this idea that teachers, you know, social emotional learning is out of scope for a lot of teachers, they've done it casually, but they have never been trained in it in any particular way. Professional development has been around for generations, my mother in law, and my mother actually are both teachers for years. And they've done of course, lots of professional development. What does TPD what is professional development or PD look like in 2022? What have you seen from all your clients and in the field,
Acky Kamdar:you know, again, I'm going to refer to pandemic as a inflection point, or, you know, two years of your challenges that we all have faced collectively as civilization. Teachers, I think I've faced a maximum burden of that, I think, you know, the role has, you know, has emerged or morphed into not just teaching math or language in a classroom, but you know, literally dealing with the stress and anxiety that the students bring to the classroom. Plus, you know, the whole administrative burden that has come along, post pandemic, for every teacher has actually caused a lot of teacher attrition. And that, in turn, has created a lot of pressure in, you know, improving the supply of teachers into the school systems, you know, and this, again, is causing a lot of focus on teacher professional development as well. So I think, you know, there is, if I just want to ignore for a moment or supply side issues, that you know, that we have developed teachers for the classroom, I think we just looked at the current teachers that are there in the system, and how we can upgrade their skills to the new or, you know, hybrid learning to the new paradigm of digital learning, then I think, you know, we'll be, we'll be in a better place to start with a my opinion, back then when, you know, when we were interacting with the school districts, you know, the teacher, professional development also had us special investment towards, you know, technology training. But we all know that the adoption of digital options by teachers has always been behind, in fact, the lack compared to the students and parents adopting technology, and that used to create friction. Fortunately, during the pandemic, many teachers were forced to learn digital, and adopt digital at a much faster pace. And I think if we can keep that momentum up by substantially upgrading them, then that'd be great. I'll leave another important thought here. And that will help us, you know, discuss the next point, which is, you know, in our environment, education environment, the number of tools have multiplied substantially. And the biggest feedback that comes from, you know, the educators, the teachers is that, you know, dealing with more than 20 to 25 applications in a school environment or products in a school environment is extremely hard for teachers to come up to speed, make the most use of it. And, you know, reporting on to the efficacy of these products is just, you know, difficult for these teachers, right. I know, in my environment, if I were to roll out a new product, I take a lot of time before I assume that my team members will be able to use it effectively. But in the school, you know, asking a teacher to give additional half an hour even in a week's time is very difficult. You know, for them to call that, because they have already the schedules already, or pack, they're all working, the taking a lot of work home already, and then asking them to give that additional half an hour, 45 minutes very difficult. So I think in case of teachers, professional development, micro learning is a big step towards that, you know, and being able to provide them the learning material, anywhere and everywhere is very important. I also feel that, you know, if you can provide them learning in an FAQ model, a frequently asked question model, which is, you know, just in time, they know, hey, I'm doing I'm stuck with this, what do I do rather than wait for a monolithic session to take place? You know, and take them out for three days somewhere, and do the TPD and bring them back? Right. So I think we will have to think of many different models to make that whole thing effective.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, so many good points in there. I think it's really it's yeah, the the asynchronous professional development, the idea that the pandemic has accelerated digital adoption, so we've got to keep that momentum. I totally agree. And teacher overwork is just, you know, an epidemic right now, the shortages are so big, and what that's doing is putting even more burden on the teachers who are staying in the classroom, because they have, sometimes more students are just, you know, don't have special ed or support. So I definitely get it reminds me of something. You know, a spoke recently to Nicole Tucker Smith is the CEO of a PD company called lesson cast. And she said something that was so funny, it reminds me of what you're saying here, which is, she said that, you know, in some schools, they're saying, Our teachers are so overworked. It's so hard, they need more professional development, and others are saying our teachers are so overworked. It's so hard, we need to get rid of all the Pittsburgh development. They don't have time for it. And it's exactly what you're saying. It's it's such a funny paradox, I think in schools right now. So that brings us to our fifth and final trend, and you talked about integration. And you know, we've talked on the podcast a bit, we talked to Aaron mode, from innovative view about interoperability, we talked to learn platform about how teachers use 86, different edtech tools in the US, you mentioned more than 25 as a problem, the 86 in some cases, most about integration and interoperability and how you advise the companies you work with to ensure that you know, that their products aren't just adding more burden, and they actually interoperate with others.
Acky Kamdar:You know, it's a big subject. And I'm telling you, if you talk to me, after 20 years, I think we'll still talk about that topic, which is identity and integration, you know, we'll keep talking about it. You know, my background is in financial markets previously, also. And we dealt with this problem of integration and interoperability forever, which is one of the reasons why when I started working here in magic, I first thing I did is I got magic to be part of the industry standards body one ad tech, you know, earlier, it used to be called IMS Global. So we are contributing member in that body. So we sit on many different, you know, work groups to understand what's emerging work towards defining standards. In fact, we talked about di, you know, before, we are on the workgroup committee for di and accessibility defining standards are there as well, because we think that, you know, we all have to work together define standards for the industry, so that when we build a product, we are building the product, keeping in mind that these products have to interoperate. And at the heart of the, again, I go back to my same talk discussion that I had earlier, which is the experience of the learner, and the teacher has to be very good on the product. Okay, if the experience is poor, then you will have poor engagement, then you'll have poor adoption, and you'll have, you know, so I think it's a cycle. And, you know, almost all the trends that we talked about does come back to this, if I have to deal with prettify 30 different products, or he has to sell at six different products, there is no way you know, these products, you know, I mean, they better be integrated at the backend. Okay, if they integrate, that's great. But the unfortunate thing is that, you know, many products are designed in a very siloed right, and sometimes, you know, intentional, because the ad tech company wants to keep the data of it to themselves. And they want to be able to monetize the data versus you know, letting the data go somewhere else. Whereas some companies are unintentionally ending up designing it that way, because that is the fastest way they can deliver the product to the market. So, you know, the whole idea is, can let me get the product out of the door first, then I will work towards, you know, creating the interfaces, which can then talk to other systems. And that never happens, you know, by the time you develop enough legacy in the platform, that you unless you willing to put lot more money to change that so that you can now start talking to other systems. So it's a very, you know, being a technologist at the back. You know, I know I understand how these decisions, then become, you know, big problems for us in down the line. And keeping up to standards also is a costly affair. You know, getting certifications is a costly affair. But if you want to be successful if you want to create a success So it's a good positive experience for your learner's that I think there's no option on this. We haven't touched a topic called personalized learning the holy grail of our industry, we've been promising that for last 20 years haven't delivered. Okay, but I think we're getting there. But I think fundamental thing below that, you know, would be that I should be able to understand my learner's profile and the my learners journey, I cannot do that if I cannot get to know where my learner has been. Right. And therefore I cannot, as a platform deliver a personalized learning unless I'm, again being siloed. And I love to do that, right? Because my learner goes to different topics, different subjects, different platforms. So how do I figure that out? Right, there's no way I can do it. I need to be able to work with other platforms understand where the learner has been. And then, you know, top it up with all data, privacy, data, security, and all that stuff that comes in your way. But there's a way to solve that.
Alexander Sarlin:I agree. I love that positive note to end on. I think, you know, we may still be talking about it in 20 years, but it is solvable. It is. And I think I think you know, we've gotten a little bit better, as an industry in having data be able to go from one platform for another or to have products integrate into others, I think it's getting better. And people are more aware of it than the past. There's a the education technology writer, Phil Hill has this hilarious line, which is about, you know, given enough time, every ed tech product will become an LMS. Good, I think it's, it's exactly what you're saying, you know, people keep siloing and adding more, and then they have to add a great book, and then they have to add accessibility, you know, instead of the all these edtech products complementing each other, you end up with a million competing products that I'll try to be sort of a one stop shop, but there aren't people use them only for one thing. It's it's been a mess. But I love your positivity. And I hope we're moving in the right direction. I think so that was great to hear that you're working with, you know, IMS? Or what is the new name? No, when ed tech group to think about the standards and the future of this because it is really important. So I have one final question. You know, we've talked about five different trends, they're all quite different social emotional learning, diversity, equity, and inclusion, teacher professional development, given these trends and your overall view of the landscape, you know, how would you advise a tech companies generally what should they? What? How should they be thinking about this moment to best serve their learners? Should they go all in on one of these things? Or? Or how do they put it all together?
Acky Kamdar:I think, you know, I've said this before, the landscape is very big. And you know, you can do many things in this industry to create an impact. And, you know, I can do a simple answer, focus on the learners experience on your product. And the outcome that you want to focus on is learning efficacy. Right? If you can measure the outcome from learners efficacy perspective, and focus on learning the experience that the learner has on your platform, I think that's what they should do. No matter which area you're working in, front back, you know, which subject which discipline doesn't matter. I think as long as you are able to focus on these two things, and deliver I struggle with that every day, we challenge ourselves every day that are doing a little better than what we did before, in the experience that we are providing to our learners. And whether the learning efficacy has improved from what we did last time.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, I think that's a really great advice, you know, keep focused on the learning outcomes, the efficacy and making sure people really enjoy your product and adopt it to your point earlier, they engaging that they, it really works for them in every way, then, you know, you can think talk about different trends. But if you keep your eye on that prize, you'll know which ones to use, that actually drive you in the right direction. So just to take us out, we always ask every guest, what is the most exciting trend you see in the landscape right now, I know, we've talked about a lot today. But let's see if there's any more, you know, one trend that you think our listeners should keep an eye on something that's maybe coming down the pipe.
Acky Kamdar:So I heard this from someone in the industry, and this is very interesting. So throughout our conversation, we talked about, you know, learning outcome, right? I think, you know, look at how edtech can play a role going beyond learning outcome. And look at Lifetime outcomes. Right? Today, you know, we are very sequential in our learning, which is you know, k 12, higher ed, you know, and then you know, go and work. But the workplace is changing, and it's become very dynamic, right? And that means that I have to keep doing lifelong learning. Right? And for that, you know, and given all the pandemic that has happened, you know, we all have learned one thing is that, you know, we're going to make now better choices about our life first, and then decide what I want to do from a career perspective. And then say, if I want to have this kind of a lifestyle, then maybe I want to do some in completely different, and therefore maybe how to rescale myself for that. So how do I help my target market or my learners to make better life choices, rather than learning choices? So if you see the mission statement we have at our end, we say, we want to help learners, their pursuit of happiness. You know, that's important, because at the end of the day, I'm not learning for the sake of learning. Okay, does it deliver better happiness for me? Right? I think I, I think we have to think like that. It goes beyond learning outcomes. So when you when I look at this whole trend that you talked about edtech, right. I think instead of answering, you know, AI, ml blockchain, you know, those are tools. They are we are Metaverse, you know, good jargons, to try to write, but let's focus on who we want to be as a tech. Let's focus on what we can do for our learners. Can we help them make better life choices? Can we help them in their pursuit of happiness?
Alexander Sarlin:I love that it's such a great framing. And it's funny, you know, I think we debate in the EdTech space a lot about, you know, career outcomes versus academic outcomes versus, you know, becoming an enlightened person, you know, the idea of the liberal arts ideal, you know, having a, being a citizen of the world. I love that, you know, when you say, life outcomes, happiness, those can be reached through any of those routes, right? You can have a happy life through a career, you can have a happy life through being an enlightened person who loves to read philosophy, you can be a happy person by, you know, meeting your significant other through an educational experience. And I think it's such an interesting way to sort of move beyond that, that debate and just think about, you know, life outcomes, very inspiring. I really like it. And then our very final question, what is one resource can be a book, a blog, a Twitter feed, a newsletter that you would recommend for anyone who wants to dive deeper into any of the topics we discussed today? And I know we've discussed a wide range.
Acky Kamdar:Well, don't get me started on the books, because I'm a big book guy, so I can take you anywhere. Book book. Okay. I must tell you that, you know, I actually have been very impressed with this book, written by Tara Westover is called educated, it doesn't talk about education policy doesn't talk about anything that we talked, but it will, if you read that book, it'll still get you to many of those topics, right? In a very commonsensical way. You know, because at the end of the day, when we are addressing a learner, you're not addressing the learner, as a student who walks into the door, we are addressing the learner as a whole, you know, what kind of family that person is living in or know family, what kind of society or community that person comes in from, you know, good, bad, ugly challenges that person might be facing. And therefore, you know, when I was reading that book, you know, and I went toward that book a few times, just because I got so much caught up by what was being, you know, the, the journey of that person, you know, to go through. So I don't know whether you heard of that book at all, or not, but it is,
Alexander Sarlin:no, I've read it. I think it's a great book. It's a great Yeah, really. And I think it matches your idea about education as a way to change your life to get a happier life, she really used it to completely escape her, no matter, no matter
Acky Kamdar:the kind of challenges she had. I mean, the odds are completely against her to get any education of any kind, and she lands up in Harvard. And she probably has now inspired millions of people with that book, I've been thoroughly impressed with the journey, and I talk about it a lot. I personally become very open minded about the pathways that a student can take a learner can take in their lives, I have two children, one is 27 years old. The other one is 22 years. You know, like a typical Indian parent, I would have liked them to become a doctor engineer or something like that, or follow my path of technology, business or whatever, but you don't I'm completely open as in Europe, you know, you'll find your happiness wherever, however you want to do it. You don't have to follow a certain path. So it's opened me up a lot. I do want to recommend one more thing, which is you know, I follow up podcast, I'm a big podcast guy as well, by the way. So thank you for all this podcasts. You're heard of them from you also. Enjoy your tech insiders podcast. There's one podcast that you know, I would recommend it's called econ talk. It's by Russ Roberts. I don't know whether you heard of that or not. But you know, I would love to get your feedback on that. I've been following Russ Roberts for a very long time. It's called econ talk to me. You know, if you ask me, where do I go and do my learning. That's the podcast. It covers topics across the map. You He does attack, sometimes he does. Everything else. He brings economic perspective to many of the topics, but not necessarily so even kind of goes all over the map is very good. Great, great suggestion.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, I'm looking at. Yeah, we did look sounds absolutely fascinating. Well, as always, we will put links to all of the resources. In this case. It's educated by Tara Westover and the Russ Roberts econ talk podcast. In the show notes for this episode. You can find links for them there, as well as on Google or anywhere else you find your podcasts and books. Jackie Kamdar. This has been an amazing conversation. I feel like we've ranged over so many different aspects of edtech that are so important. And of course, we will have the link to magic ed tech site as well in our show notes. Thank you so much for being here today on edtech insiders.
Acky Kamdar:Alex, thank you so much for the opportunity. I enjoyed the conversation.
Alexander Sarlin:Thanks for listening to this episode of edtech insiders. If you like the podcast, remember to rate it and share it with others in the tech community. For those who want even more Ed Tech Insider subscribe to the free ed tech insiders newsletter on substack.
