Edtech Insiders
Edtech Insiders
Exploring European Edtech with Svenia Busson of the European Edtech Alliance
Svenia Busson is a global Learning Innovation explorer who has traveled through 19 countries to identify the most innovative technological teaching and learning practices, which she captured in her recent book, ‘Exploring the Future of Education’.
Svenia is also a major network builder in Europe, having co-founded both Edtech France, an industry association representing 400 startups in France, and the European Edtech Alliance, representing more than 2400 startups across Europe.
Svenia is now raising a new edtech focused VC fund and is going to invest in European edtech entrepreneurs.
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Welcome to Ed Tech insiders. In this podcast we talk to educators and educational technology investors, thought leaders, founders and operators about the most interesting and exciting trends in the field. I'm your host, Alex Sarlin, an educational technology veteran with over a decade of work at leading edtech companies. Svenia Busson is a global learning innovation explorer, who has traveled through 19 countries to identify the most innovative technological teaching and learning practices, which she captured in her recent book, exploring the future of education spending is also a major network builder in Europe, having co founded both ed tech France, an industry association representing 400 startups in France, as well as the European edtech. Alliance, which represents more than 2400 startups across many countries in Europe. Svenia is raising a new ed tech focused VC fund working with female ed tech entrepreneurs, and is working to invest in European entrepreneurs in education technology, Svenia Busson, Welcome to Ed Tech insiders.
Svenia Busson:Good to be here. Thank you.
Alexander Sarlin:So spending a you've literally walked the walk in a tech, you've traveled from country to country to examine education systems and edtech practices all over Europe. And you've also worked to bring hundreds of ed tech startups together, through industry associations. Give us a little overview of your ed tech journey and how you became this connector in throughout Europe.
Svenia Busson:Sure. So yeah, I started when I was still, you know, sitting in business school in Paris. And I was wondering why, you know, the education system was so top down, and I was wondering where all these innovations were, and they were certainly not in that school. So I definitely wanted to see what was happening across the globe. And with a schoolmate, we decided to create a think tank called the ad tech tours. And we did our first ad tech world tour and 2015, we traveled the globe and looked at, you know, ad tech ecosystems across five continents, it was amazing, we learned a lot, we just, you know, we went to see startups, but also, in each country, we tried to go also to the public policy side trying to also interview ministers or, you know, public servants in education to also understand that part of the system, as well, as you know, for profits company, non for profits, researchers, visiting a lot of schools, we have a lot of fun, you know, visiting some of the most innovative schools out there. So it was it was amazing. And so after that we published a report. And then we decided to continue traveling and discovering what was happening. So I did a Europe tour and Africa tour and COVID stopped my travels. My travels, unfortunately. But yeah, we discovered a lot and learned a lot on these tours.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, so you've been all over the world. That's incredible. I didn't actually even realize you've been through Africa through all five through five continents. In your most recent book, exploring the future of education, you focus on Europe, and you spoke to educators and people in the ed tech ecosystem throughout the continent. And one of the things I found really interesting is how in each country, you sort of found themes for how Ad Tech has developed there. So I wanted to play a little back and forth game with you where I'll name a country and some of the words that are sort of come from your theme. And you expand on it. Give a couple of thoughts about what they mean and what you found there. Are you ready? Okay, yeah. All right. So first, let's talk about Estonia. Your themes were digital maturity, innovation, and even AI.
Svenia Busson:Oh, really interesting country is Estonia is like digital first, like all over. It's so interesting. I mean, people are so digitally savvy, that I mean, I haven't seen this anywhere else. And it also shows within you know, the schools how technology is used. I talk about one specific company that uses AI in a very effective and innovative way. It's called linguist, and they do language learning language training with the use of adaptive learning technologies. And so yeah, that's why I went back to the term AI for Estonia, because you know, they're doing an amazing job there. But yeah, I mean, super small country. 1.3 million people but still super innovative. And their PISA score is actually very, very high. It was such a small country, I think because they they take their inspiration for from Finland also a lot because they're very close terms of culture and, and geographically very close to So yeah, super interesting.
Alexander Sarlin:How about let's move over to Denmark, another interesting company and you mentioned trust and creativity, and even architecture as some of the themes of what was going on in Denmark. Talk to us about Denmark
Svenia Busson:and the In Denmark is really the country where trust has its like ultimate importance. Because, you know, in high school, there's no school books anymore. Every high school public, private and Denmark has the bring your own laptop policy. And so kids don't I mean, they don't come with schoolbooks anymore, and papers and pen, they only come with their love laptops. So it's super interesting because teachers have to revisit their entire teaching, because they're in front of, you know, 20 laptops. And so you have to trust, you have to trust the students in front of you. And so that's why I called it a pedagogy of trust, because they have to be better than these computers, they have to be, you know, more engaging than these computers. And it's really interesting, because, you know, they invented a lot of different ways of engaging these students. And I think, you know, engagement is absolutely key when you when learning, and so it works, it works really well, they do a lot of project based learning, problem based learning, and they excel, and that's, and they have lots of different types of schools. That's why I talk about architecture in school spaces. Because you know, anyone in Denmark and start their own school, anyone can start their own school and get funded by the state from year one. And that's amazing. Because, you know, you just go to the state and say, I have this new school concept, can you fund me? And the answer will be yes, if you follow the curriculum, that's the only thing you cannot teach whatever you want to teach you, you have to teach the curriculum, the official curriculum, but you can do it wherever you want. So I visited like schools and forests, like schools that are only like teaching in nature, schools with amazing, you know, architecture Inside Out schools and libraries. I mean, it was it was amazing. So Denmark is super innovative on that France.
Alexander Sarlin:It's amazing, the pictures of some of the the unusual schools around Europe, and some of the architecture of these beautiful, Nordic, you know, Nordic structures was really inspiring. So let's talk a little bit about Germany. And we'll do one more after this. But the book is filled with incredible insights. So Germany, you talked about decentralization, data protection and project based learning. Tell us a little bit about what's going on in edtech. In Germany,
Svenia Busson:yeah, I mean, Germany, 16 different states 16 different education systems. So it's tough to navigate when you are an edtech startups for for example. So, you know, you have to find a way to get into these 16 different states and adapt to each and every one of these. And it's tough, because it's more difficult to penetrate the market. But at the same time, it's I think it's better to have a decentralized system that allows for more innovation that comes from the ground, and that really listens to the needs also of the ground. And in France on the country, you have a very centralized system. And that doesn't really allow for any, like bottom up innovation. So yeah, Germany is very interesting in that regard. And you know, a lot of project based learning, and a lot of vocational training, too. I mean, the piece of vocational training is huge. It's, you know, very well regarded to go the vocational path, the TVET part. And I think that's, that's amazing. And that's for me, they they understood, right, they do like vocational training rites, It's project based learning hands on, on the job training, super, super innovative. And it's like, you know, the whole world Germany is recognized for their vocational training system,
Alexander Sarlin:I've really noticed that as well, that as the, you know, other countries in the world are starting to think about how to accelerate their own vocational training in cutting edge technology fields, they look to Germany, Switzerland a little bit to, to really see how it's been done for decades there and done in really, really effective ways that bring both corporations and the government together. You mentioned France in passing there. And that was going to be my last one. So you know, Germany's decentralized in France, you talk about the mammoth, you could explain what that is. And Pierre Gaji in France also has bootcamps and yeah, let's stop there. But the mammoth pedagogy and boot camps talk to us about French Tech,
Svenia Busson:the mammoth because you know, the education system is so hard to change because it's, it is encompassing the whole country. And it's very, very centralized, as I said, so they are the biggest employer basically, they employ like you know, millions and millions of people and so it's very it's it's, it's not easy to change anything inside the system that is so centralized and top down so that's a bit of a pity. But there's a huge tech ecosystem now in France, you know, gathering up to to innovate outside the system, because it's very hard to so you know, you know, sell to schools, etc, because that's so centralized, but the the Innovate a lot outside the system and, you know, direct to teachers. So there are lots of amazing innovations. Do that classroom, for example, with the K, they started an app for teachers to communicate better with theirs with the parents and the students and, and you know, and the app is now sold to parents because they couldn't penetrate the school markets. And so schools because schools have no budget. And so now parents are super happy to pay for that app and to have better communications with their kids, teachers. So it's very interesting how ad tech and friends is like, you know, finding a way to bypassing you know, the complexity of the system. And also, because the system is stiff and doesn't change that much. We have this huge rise of boot camps and other forms of schools, especially for tertiary education, you know, with new types of formats, like three months boot camps, for your sales training, you know, that just tell you don't go to university don't go to these elite, you know, schools just go to us in three months, you will learn like top notch skills and get into the best startups, scaleups. And friends. And yeah, these types of boot camps have risin. And it's, it's quite amazing to see, yeah, how much influx they have in terms of students recruitment, yeah,
Alexander Sarlin:that pattern of edtech companies either going directly through school systems, and then when they can't, because the school systems are sometimes too slow to adopt, or it just becomes difficult going around them and going directly to consumers. We've seen versions of that all over the world, some countries, parents have have serious budgets and real deep interest in buying lots of extracurricular, we could call it apps or boot camps, or accelerant programs, or you know, anything for their students. And in other countries, a lot of it comes right through the main system, it's been interesting to see how it plays out in different ways, even within different countries in Europe, I wanted to focus on one thing that's also very interesting in your book you focus on as you go from country to country on some of the really innovative European companies that are rising, you mentioned linguist, there's also you know, lobster brainly, out of Poland could code, the wagon and a lot more, as you've done these travels all over the world, as well as Europe. Well, let's expand our scope here. I'd love to hear about you know, how you identify companies that are really are really making waves in the space and ones that are having outsized effect on the landscape? How do you identify them? And sort of what are your some of your signals about companies that are have real aspirations to change things?
Svenia Busson:No, I think the first thing is to see if these companies are global, or at least in different types of countries. I mean, you know, Kahoot, was global from day one. Same for brainly. So for me, that's a very strong sign to see if that company is staying for years in their local market and their first market, or if there are expanding and thinking global from day one. And I think, you know, not every business model allows for that for sure. But it's a strong sign if a company thinks global from day one. So that's the way I approach things. And then I see, you know, I have a look at, you know, the number of users and their biggest achievements, and they have look at their metrics. And I have, you know, I look at it as an investor, basically, almost, you know, to see what type of companies are making waves. I mean, these are the types of companies that I would, you know, invest in. And so yeah, and I go to see them. And then I tried to really understand the story behind the company, the team, the culture, and in the companies that you mentioned, I found, you know, amazing stories and an amazing team and, you know, an amazing effort to make their products available. And sometimes, they are so much into that effort that they don't think at all about their business model. And they grow extensively. They raise a lot of funds, but they don't make money at all. I mean, that's the model that we see, especially in the US and Europe, it's a bit tougher to have that model, because you don't find any, you know, I mean, it's tough to find investors that will fund you know, that, that scale, without, you know, having you making money. And so, in the US, you see a lot of that and in other parts of the country of the world, but in Europe, it's a bit tougher. But when you look at Ken Wooten and brainy, they raised a lot of funds abroad, I mean, outside Europe to to fund that scaling process. And so in my book, it also talks about that, like, how long can you fundraise until you make money and until you become profitable? So it's a larger topic, but um, these companies have made an amazing impact on a lot of young people, a lot of teachers using their products and see that, yeah, it's in their DNA. And it's
Alexander Sarlin:interesting because you, you really are choosing companies out of a very wide array of companies that are spawning all the time all the way through Europe, but one of your special skills is bringing edtech companies together into alliances and organizations. You have a tech France and the European ed tech Alliance, you've really brought a lot of people together, I'd love to hear a little bit about what you see as some of the core benefits of these alliances of why ed tech companies in Finland and France and Germany and Italy should all know each other and work together rather than being siloed.
Svenia Busson:First of all, because we have a very fragmented ties, you know, system, lots of fragments, lots of small companies a bit everywhere. So I think it would make a lot of sense to just make sure that we build alliances, we build bridges between different types of companies in different geographies in Europe. And so one of the things we're building with the European tech Alliance, is we're building this open map, where every ad tech startup, every ad tech company in Europe will be on that map. And so it will be super easy for you to find out who's your competitor and France and Germany and Norway, it will be easy for you to reach out to them and say, Okay, what can we do together rather than having, you know, like, 1015, you know, tution, you know, after school tuition startups on the market, why not join forces, you know, and build bridges do things together, and it would be also easier to go from one market to another with that. So that's one of our main goals with these alliances, alliances, as you call them, and the European one, the French one and the 17. Other alliances that exist today, trade associations that exist. In Europe, it's really to build bridges within an ecosystem and trying to make sure that people meet each other, know each other more. And yeah, and start collaborating in some ways. And the second, the second large goal that we have is, you know, on the public policy side trying to influence also what's happening on the European level, because we are the voice for at Tech in Europe. I mean, we are, we bring together a lot of the industry professionals in Europe. And so we are the go to organization for a tech. And so now we're talking with the European Commission, and we think we see a lot of things, you know, go forward, and yeah, and we want to be part of these, you know, future developments and help build them and CO create them and, and influence them. So yeah, that's the second large mission that we have.
Alexander Sarlin:It makes a lot of sense. And so it looks like they're I think they're over 2400 companies in the European edtech. Alliance trade association. Is that, is that a number up to date? That's a pretty amazing number. Yeah, I
Svenia Busson:think and it's growing. I mean, we have a very booming market right now. So the number of companies being created is like higher than ever before. So in most countries, so it's growing. It's yeah, the opportunities are huge.
Alexander Sarlin:Yeah, I wanted to double click a bit on your idea about having a map of the whole ecosystem and how European edtech companies can see competitors or possible partners across borders, it strikes me as first off a very European idea. And I mean that in the best possible way, it's sort of how to how to bring the countries together into common ideas that can be stronger than the sum of their parts. But I'm also curious about that dynamic. You mentioned about, you know, if companies in Europe are trying to be international to spread their wings, but then they know there are competitors doing something very similar in the next country over how do those companies sort of deal with each other? Do they? Do they go into the partnership? You're kind of saying, or do they sort of set their sights on each other? And think of themselves as competitors?
Svenia Busson:That's a very good question. Actually, for me, there are two types of companies in the field. And in Europe, specifically, because Europe is a set of 20 different markets very different and very small compared to the US and to other Asian markets. So basically, one category of companies is going to stay in the local market, and these companies are going to master their local markets, but not they don't really have like this global mindset, and they don't really need that. So they will stay small, they will stay on their local, maybe they will stick to one language, and they'll stay in their local market and other companies will have a global mindset from day one. And we'll definitely you know, try to think global go global, not particularly like create, you know, partnerships with the other organization that is very, you know, country specific and focus on their home market, but they'll try to, you know, do something different and yeah, maybe position themselves as competitors like brainly did, you know in France and other countries, I mean, they even change names and branding in France. It's not it's not cold binary, they have like a very French name. And yes, they are direct competitors to some of the local you know, teams working on them after school tuition and so it's really interesting, but you know, they're nailing the market and maybe they will at some point, you know, be be you know, market leader who knows, but I think it's a matter of mindset and you know, two types of mindsets and Europe that's how I see things. And you can see it just, you know, just the number of companies that do not, you know, translate their websites into English, you know, and I see a lot of companies coming to me, and they have their websites only in Spanish and polish and French. And, you know, you can see that, you know, they're not that internationally minded. And I think that should be like, the first thing that you should do, if you're internationally minded is to translate your website to English, that's a very strong sign. And if you keep it in your home language, so for me, it's that type of of sign that I'm looking for when I look for companies. Yeah, it makes a
Alexander Sarlin:lot of sense, I thought was very interesting in your book, how, when you went to Spain, you specifically said, the Spanish market is so diverse, it has so many different things going on, I'm going to focus in on Catalonia, as a specific part of Spain that's doing all this innovation, and that strikes me is, you know, Catalonia has its own language, even outside of Spain as its own culture. And you know, there's so many different sub regions and and sections within Europe, I imagine the dynamics of things that are within a country or have language barriers, like you're saying, do you do translate to English early, creates this really rich and robust ecosystem where, you know, I'm sure people learn a huge amount from each other, looking across borders, or just people in different spaces, it must be exciting place to work. And I wanted to, you know, after being so close to that ecosystem for so long, and seeing it grow, you know, triple basically, in the last two years in terms of funding, what are some of the large scale trends that you've seen in the region? You know, are there groups of companies suddenly appearing inside the European edtech? Alliance, that are all focusing on the same problems? Are they all looking for the same markets? I'm curious what trends you've seen?
Svenia Busson:Well, it's interesting, I mean, we've seen a lot of consolidation of the market. So you know, for example, GO students, you know, our European champion, has just, you know, acquired two new companies. So I think that's a very strong trend that we see this consolidation of bigger players, you know, buying smaller players, that's the first very big sign. And then in terms of, like, market specific trends, you know, I would say, as I said earlier, because the European markets are so tough to penetrate in terms of K 12. And, and higher ed, it's like a very old school and, and it's tough to change anything in these traditional traditional education institutions, I've seen a lot of new types of schools, new types of, of trainings, and also your new types of universities. I mean, only when you look at code University, when you look at LIS, the London interdisciplinary school in, in the UK, I mean, you see that there are also new trends in terms of like, creating new types of universities or so forth College. In France, you know, you have that and you have also, as I said, boot camps, and new ways of training people that do not last like five years, and for and Europe, we have this bachelor's, master's thing, and it lasts five years, and in five years, you know, what you've learned can be completely obsolete, because of the pace of change. So now, we've seen that there, there are some, you know, a lot of new ways of getting trained and very small bits and pieces that you bring together that you put together and you make your your own learning path happen this way, without going through this traditional five year degree. And yeah, and there's also a big trend, you know, coming from the Nordics, you know, in terms of well, being SEL, social, emotional learning, that's very big. And I think we can learn a lot from the Nordics. That's also what's so amazing in Europe is that you have these different regions with these different, you know, feeling senses about what education should look like, and, and what is it for. And in Nordics, you don't have the same definition of education, then you have, you know, in South and Europe, for example. And we learned a lot from that. And so, yeah, countries like Estonia, Finland, Denmark, and companies like mighty fire, for example, from from Finland, that does a lot of social and emotional learning for kids teaching them empathy. And, and so, you know, that's also for me a big, big, big trend. And also Europe is like mastering corporate learning, because that's where the biggest market is, in Europe. I mean, if you want to make money, you go to the corporate learning space, because that's where everything happens. And so you have a lot of companies nailing that space and becoming world leaders in that space because that's also the strength of Europe. We see where the opportunities are, and they are in corporate training. And so 316 are running open classrooms multiverse in the UK and they are on that space in that space and there really nailing it. That's for the European trends.
Alexander Sarlin:So it sounds like you're saying that there are a number of really interesting trends. There's social emotional learning coming down from the Nordic countries, there's corporate learning, there's consolidation happening where Vienna based NGO student is acquiring multiple companies after a big round of funding. And there's all sorts of different things going around the regular school system to offer alternative, shorter form education experiences for families,
Svenia Busson:and not just families. Also, you know, like, anyone like upskilling, rescaling, if I want to learn something new, and I want to change jobs, you know, I have a lot of offerings for me to develop my skills and, you know, on a lifelong basis, and I think that's super important is to also, you know, see learning as a lifelong objective. And, and all of these courses and platforms and boot camps can allow us to do that,
Alexander Sarlin:it's really interesting to hear that some of the trends throughout Europe are really sort of dependent on the fact that the existing ecosystem, the existing, especially the higher ed, ecosystem, is just not evolving fast enough. It's not offering its own short form content, or it's not offering computer science content that can compete with 42, or code University, and even to the extent that new universities are popping up, do you think that there's any chance that in the face of all of this education change that the university system in Europe may start to adapt and start offering different kinds of programs? Are they sort of just totally fixed in their, in their ways?
Svenia Busson:Well, I know, I mean, you know, with, with the, with the rise of OEMs, they are ready, you know, on that on, on that transition. And, and they better be because, you know, it's, there's a lot at stake, if I may say so. And, and so know that some of them are really, you know, trying and to adapt to this and create other types of formats. When you see FutureLearn, for example, I worked with FutureLearn for, you know, as assignments, in my previous company, and it was really interesting to see that they are collaborating with a lot of traditional organizations that creates like, a courses for the future and platform in a completely new format that we're not used to. And it's really interesting that they're, yeah, they're doing it, and some of them are really good at it. And it's, it can also be like, you know, financially very interesting for these universities to have, like this new source of income from these platforms, FutureLearn or others. So yeah, I strongly believe that most of them have started this transition. And, and but yeah, obviously, some of them will, you know, be born to disappear at some point. But I think the most innovative ones, the most adaptive ones will, will remain, of course, but But yeah, I don't believe in the five years system anymore, you know, I think you have to at least have a huge break between your betters and your masters. Because it doesn't really make sense to sit in school for five years and not, you know, learn in a hands on way on the job. With, you know, how fast everything is, is evolving and developing right now in the world of work,
Alexander Sarlin:it makes a lot of sense, it sounds like universities will have to adapt, and some of them are already doing so both internally or with partners like OPM providers, or MOOC platforms like FutureLearn I'm really excited to see how they go. Because I think European universities have been at the forefront of innovation for a long time, especially when it comes to distance learning, you know, Open University in in UK was basically the pioneer of distance and correspondence learning, and they continue to do interesting things. But I'd love to see that happen even at an accelerated rate throughout Europe. So we you know, we close each podcast with two questions for each guest. And the first one is, what is the most exciting trend you see in the EdTech landscape right now? And I know you've already given us some Europe trends. So think globally, now, is there anything you think that our listeners should really keep their eye on that's happening today,
Svenia Busson:I'm looking, you know, most at how, you know, how we can bypass you know, schools as we know them today. And, and, and basically create something like learning experiences that are different, that are different that are completely new. I'm not saying we shouldn't have schools anymore. I mean, schools are like a very social place and we need schools to build the social bonds and to learn a lot about ourselves about others about the world, but how can you you know, Inc. crease the quality of your learning experience by having new ways of learning inside school, outside school. And, and, like in a blended format too, because I don't believe in the 100% online format, I think it's important to also find a new way to interact and, and play with the asynchronous synchronous part, online offline. And so yeah, I'm interested in these these things. And also in again, like, because we haven't nailed it yet, but how we can, you know, further personalize each learner's path. And make sure that we have, you know, we go away from the one size fits all, you know, system. And I've seen a lot of great innovations in the field, but we haven't, for me, we haven't nailed it. And there are lots of things to still be explored on that front. And, and yeah, and see, you know, how we could also reinvent career and how we see career how we can see career path and advancing in the future, how we can predict future jobs and be better at also having an analysis of future jobs, future skills, to better prepared, you know, our workforces for, for, for what's coming in 357 years, basically, because things are evolving so fast, I'm looking at how we can better predict the future of jobs.
Alexander Sarlin:That's an exciting vision of innovation that really focuses on what learners are truly trying to accomplish with some of their education, which is both to have relationships with others in person or hybrid environment, and to have a personalized experience where they can come out with the skills they need to succeed. I'm very much with you there. And then what is one book blog or Twitter feed, some people use that you would recommend for somebody who wants to know more about the topics we talked about today?
Svenia Busson:There's a newsletter, the European attic Alliance newsletter that we publish every month and you have like, condensed like news of every different country that we have represented in the EEA. So it's a for me, it's the best source of information because you have it all in one newsletter, what's happening in the Nordics, what's happening in Eastern Europe and southern Europe? So, so yeah, I would strongly recommend that that newsletter, because yeah, we're working hard every every, every month to gather these information and putting them together and you know, 17 different people coming in and, and yeah, and contributing to that. So that's great. And also, you know, our friends from Brian A ventures emerge education are also doing a lot of amazing stuff. And you know, their newsletters is also worth reading. So I would definitely sign up to those two.
Alexander Sarlin:Fantastic. So as always, we will put a link to the European edtech. Alliance newsletter in the show notes for this week, and so you'll be able to find it there. We'll also put a link to some videos. Really, really, really fascinating book, exploring the future of education about traveling across Europe and looking at edtech and education in many different countries, Svenia Busson, thank you so much for being here today.
Svenia Busson:Thank you, Alex. Thanks
Alexander Sarlin:was a pleasure. Thanks for listening to this episode of the EdTech insiders podcast. If you liked the episode, remember to subscribe on Spotify, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're listening on Apple, please leave a rating and review so others can find the podcast. For more ed tech insiders content subscribe to the Ed Tech insiders newsletter at edtech insiders.substack.com
